From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 08:42:19 2005 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Wed Mar 2 08:38:15 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] We've got our core team! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have set up a separate ML for the core team to carry on with their work in > peace. I will be subscribing them to this new ML shortly. The core team will > periodically ping the rest of us for feedback and opinions. Why said he > would expect the first round of show'n'tell to be around March 10th or so. If I may also ping, how are things progressing? -- Martin Ankerl | http://martinus.geekisp.com/ From curt at hibbs.com Wed Mar 2 09:05:15 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Wed Mar 2 09:01:17 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] We've got our core team! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Martin Ankerl wrote: > > > I have set up a separate ML for the core team to carry on with > their work in > > peace. I will be subscribing them to this new ML shortly. The > core team will > > periodically ping the rest of us for feedback and opinions. Why said he > > would expect the first round of show'n'tell to be around March > 10th or so. > > If I may also ping, how are things progressing? The team has been actively pursuing design alternatives, and have tentative plans to present their top two possibilities some time next week. Curt From ng at johnwlong.com Thu Mar 10 22:27:14 2005 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Thu Mar 10 22:22:49 2005 Subject: [OT] RedHanded CSS (was Re: [Vit-discuss] Accessibility aspects of design.) In-Reply-To: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <421A287A.9060404@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <42311012.3010803@johnwlong.com> why the lucky stiff wrote: > I've worked on changing this, but simply adding 'margins:auto' or the > like doesn't fix the problem in all browsers. I'm sympathetic to your > plight. What makes RedHanded difficult is the amount of code in our > posts. I will fix this, just waiting for a bright idea. Have you considered the advantages of negative margins: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/ -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Mar 11 01:48:16 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri Mar 11 01:44:25 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog Message-ID: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down low for now-- a.k.a. sshhh-- http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ Our core team has been chuggin along. We each threw several designs into the pile and John's designs and Michel's designs definitely rose to the top. In addition, these two have been borrowing elements from each other's designs and improving things daily (or maybe every-other). Today we're releasing a snapshot of these two designs. You will probably see these as two competing designs. I think they are two designs which are converging. Our middle-ground is somewhere between. But who knows, we may flip things. Whatever the case, I think these two designs are gorgeous. We will be collecting feedback over the next week or so and discussing revisions to these designs. Hopefully by next week we'll have a roadmap of when we can get some deeper pages and, then, a working prototype. _why From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 06:11:06 2005 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Fri Mar 11 06:06:42 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: Wow, both designs are really excellent! Here are some of my thoughts on John's design, from top to bottom: * I like the overall redish design, but the dark-red download-learn-build seems to be a bit too strong, compared to the rest of the layout. * IMHO the "Download" link should be next to "Resources" * "ruby in twenty minutes" is a very good idea - Maybe there should also be a "ruby in 5 minutes" for all the impatient people :-) * I fould the name "Build" a bit missleading. Maybe "packages" or "Software" or something like it is a better fit? * I am not quite shure what the main content is about, are this the most important news, in chronological order? Maybe something to clarify this would be useful, like providing the date as in the Latest News section. * Also for the Ruby-on-Rails windows, somehow the information is missing what this box is about. Maybe a tiny headline "featured project" would be helpful. * Maybe provide a link to an RSS feed somewhere? * I would like some kind of "Marketing" page, where I can download ruby buttons, order t-shirts, ruby-stones, etc :-) -- Martin Ankerl | http://martinus.geekisp.com/ From david at loudthinking.com Fri Mar 11 06:41:03 2005 From: david at loudthinking.com (David Heinemeier Hansson) Date: Fri Mar 11 06:36:41 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <4ea17b71087459d89dcbb0b9e9d272ee@loudthinking.com> > We will be collecting feedback over the next week or so and discussing > revisions to these designs. Hopefully by next week we'll have a > roadmap of when we can get some deeper pages and, then, a working > prototype. Very nice work! Both of them look good, but Ruby Red definitely has my heart. That gem is just beautiful and I don't find anything corny in playing on that reference. While I contemplate further comments, I'd just like to answer this: > Package management is in flux right now In my mind, there is no flux. RubyGems has prevailed. I definitely think the new site should anticipate the shortly arrival of RubyGems in the standard library and focus its energy there. RubyForge is the link for developers that wants to start their own projects and RAA is the back catalogue for oldies, but goodies. Just one more thing. If we are to show a code snippet, I think it would be way more interesting to do it in a dynamic form. See the small gif anims on http://macromates.com/ as an example. -- David Heinemeier Hansson, http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain From chad at chadfowler.com Fri Mar 11 07:53:22 2005 From: chad at chadfowler.com (Chad Fowler) Date: Fri Mar 11 07:49:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <7143463882f14eada5e3c3b12459c8cd@chadfowler.com> On 11-Mar-05, at 1:48 AM, why the lucky stiff wrote: > We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down low for > now-- a.k.a. sshhh-- > > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ > > Our core team has been chuggin along. We each threw several designs > into the pile and John's designs and Michel's designs definitely rose > to the top. In addition, these two have been borrowing elements from > each other's designs and improving things daily (or maybe > every-other). > > Today we're releasing a snapshot of these two designs. You will > probably see these as two competing designs. I think they are two > designs which are converging. Our middle-ground is somewhere between. > But who knows, we may flip things. > > Whatever the case, I think these two designs are gorgeous. > > We will be collecting feedback over the next week or so and discussing > revisions to these designs. Hopefully by next week we'll have a > roadmap of when we can get some deeper pages and, then, a working > prototype. > Wow! I hate to send such a low-value message, but this is wonderful. It's all great, but I have to say that I strongly prefer the "Ruby Red" design, mostly because it "looks like Ruby". :) Keep up the great work. I can't wait to see the outcome of this. Chad From chneukirchen at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 08:20:22 2005 From: chneukirchen at gmail.com (Christian Neukirchen) Date: Fri Mar 11 08:15:51 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> (why the lucky stiff's message of "Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:48:16 -0700") References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: why the lucky stiff writes: > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ > > Our core team has been chuggin along. We each threw several designs > into the pile and John's designs and Michel's designs definitely rose > to the top. In addition, these two have been borrowing elements from > each other's designs and improving things daily (or maybe > every-other). > > Today we're releasing a snapshot of these two designs. You will > probably see these as two competing designs. I think they are two > designs which are converging. Our middle-ground is somewhere between. > But who knows, we may flip things. I think the Ruby Red design with the "Participate" sidebar, the search form and the language selector of Clean would be pretty near perfect. :-) > _why -- Christian Neukirchen http://chneukirchen.org From david at loudthinking.com Fri Mar 11 08:35:45 2005 From: david at loudthinking.com (David Heinemeier Hansson) Date: Fri Mar 11 08:31:22 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <3ff9fe99ba7f7967549e914dc51dc33a@loudthinking.com> > I think the Ruby Red design with the "Participate" sidebar, the search > form and the language selector of Clean would be pretty near > perfect. :-) I concur. Scoped search rarely works very well in my opinion. Just have one field and make the best of the input. -- David Heinemeier Hansson, http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Mar 11 08:38:36 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri Mar 11 08:34:44 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <42319F5C.9040702@whytheluckystiff.net> why the lucky stiff wrote: > We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down low for > now-- a.k.a. sshhh-- > > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ There has been an update to Michel's design. The version I had up was a day old or so. Oh, and you can begin to spread this link. Let discussion flourish. _why From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Mar 11 08:43:32 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Fri Mar 11 08:39:06 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <4231A084.6090906@mktec.com> Christian Neukirchen wrote: > why the lucky stiff writes: > > >>http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ >> >>Our core team has been chuggin along. We each threw several designs >>into the pile and John's designs and Michel's designs definitely rose >>to the top. In addition, these two have been borrowing elements from >>each other's designs and improving things daily (or maybe >>every-other). >> >>Today we're releasing a snapshot of these two designs. You will >>probably see these as two competing designs. I think they are two >>designs which are converging. Our middle-ground is somewhere between. >>But who knows, we may flip things. > > > I think the Ruby Red design with the "Participate" sidebar, the search > form and the language selector of Clean would be pretty near > perfect. :-) > > I agree as well. (Both designs are exceptional though!) Zach From zdennis at mktec.com Fri Mar 11 08:52:06 2005 From: zdennis at mktec.com (Zach Dennis) Date: Fri Mar 11 08:47:41 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42319F5C.9040702@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <42319F5C.9040702@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <4231A286.7040307@mktec.com> why the lucky stiff wrote: > Oh, and you can begin to spread this link. Let discussion flourish. > I like the Ruby Red for overall design, as mentioned previously it seems more "rubyish" with the graphic and the bg color of "download", "learn" and "build". I like how Michel's language selection is at the top and bottom of each page. I also like how's Michel's side bar (with Download, Get Started, Participate, etc..) are displayed with the little icons and the font selection moreso then the sidebar in the Ruby Red. I am also a fan of standard Arial font text for plain text, and then changing fonts for certain areas or code snippets. Both are looking quite exceptional! Zach From curt at hibbs.com Fri Mar 11 09:10:05 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Mar 11 09:05:40 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: Matz, I don't think you are subscribed to the discussion list, so I wanted to make sure you saw this. If you want to subscribe, you can do so here: http://rubyforge.org/mail/?group_id=556 Curt why the lucky stiff wrote: > > We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down low for > now-- a.k.a. sshhh-- > > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ > > Our core team has been chuggin along. We each threw several designs > into the pile and John's designs and Michel's designs definitely rose to > the top. In addition, these two have been borrowing elements from each > other's designs and improving things daily (or maybe every-other). > > Today we're releasing a snapshot of these two designs. You will > probably see these as two competing designs. I think they are two > designs which are converging. Our middle-ground is somewhere between. > But who knows, we may flip things. > > Whatever the case, I think these two designs are gorgeous. > > We will be collecting feedback over the next week or so and discussing > revisions to these designs. Hopefully by next week we'll have a roadmap > of when we can get some deeper pages and, then, a working prototype. > > _why From vfoley at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:25:42 2005 From: vfoley at gmail.com (Vincent Foley) Date: Fri Mar 11 09:21:19 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Re: Redesign 2005 Blog Message-ID: <777f2eb2050311062545ef6ebd@mail.gmail.com> I like John's Ruby Red the best, but there is something that I read on Michel's that should be on the page, whichever design is picked; at the bottom of Michel's Clean, you can read "Designed and maintained by The Ruby Community." This may seem unimportant, but I follow discussions about Common Lisp, Smalltalk, Python and Ruby and clearly, the Ruby community is the most friendly, most helpful one. Newcomers should know that when they get into the Ruby world, they won't be alone, they will meet people to help them, they will make good friends, etc. -- Vincent Foley-Bourgon Blog: http://www.livejournal.com/~gnuvince World.run while (6 * 9 == 42) From dblack at wobblini.net Fri Mar 11 09:33:34 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Fri Mar 11 09:29:10 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: Hi -- On Thu, 10 Mar 2005, why the lucky stiff wrote: > We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down low for now-- > a.k.a. sshhh-- > > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ > > Our core team has been chuggin along. We each threw several designs into the > pile and John's designs and Michel's designs definitely rose to the top. In > addition, these two have been borrowing elements from each other's designs > and improving things daily (or maybe every-other). > > Today we're releasing a snapshot of these two designs. You will probably see > these as two competing designs. I think they are two designs which are > converging. Our middle-ground is somewhere between. But who knows, we may > flip things. > > Whatever the case, I think these two designs are gorgeous. > > We will be collecting feedback over the next week or so and discussing > revisions to these designs. Hopefully by next week we'll have a roadmap of > when we can get some deeper pages and, then, a working prototype. Very nice work by all concerned. I don't have a strong preference as between the two on view. One question for John: would it be possible to avoid the duplication between the navigation bar and those navigation squares? I know what people are going to say: the navbar has to serve on different sub-pages and therefore can't be changed. I tend to think it should be anyway :-) It looks a little cluttered to have "Learn Ruby" and "Download" right about "Learn" and "Download". I like the fact that Michel's has a bit of Ruby code visible. I see the slogan (Programmers' Best Friend) has been singularized. I sort of liked the collectivity of the original. Anyway, if either of these were to drop in to ruby-lang.org I think it would be very nice. I'm also curious to know: what is the current state of coordination (or not) with the Japanese side of the site? David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From hgs at dmu.ac.uk Fri Mar 11 09:43:12 2005 From: hgs at dmu.ac.uk (Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng) Date: Fri Mar 11 09:38:58 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42319F5C.9040702@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <42319F5C.9040702@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: OK, here's my take on this: The Ruby Red one has aspects I like: the coloured boundaries to some regions and the lines (even though they are thin) help clarify the layout. For such small details, they seem to help a lot with readability. I prefer the Ruby logo on this one to the other, but I'd want to put a bit of specular reflection on the top surface and on the bottom facets, so it looks more polished. But that's a very minor point, offered in the hope it's some use... The "Clean" layout: This has a much nicer search box: I find the greater depth in the box helps it show up better, as well as the grey button. But I don't know what functionality the other (2 box design) gives that this doesn't have. I like the explicit support for other languages in this design. The idea of presenting clear code is good. It tends to make "hello World" look a bit laboured. though. What about stea-- I mean borrowing with permission, the web download example from the Pickaxe, which shows how one can do serious work in a few lines? Anyway, it's good stuff, keep it coming. Can we see a mockup directly, so we can critique it with obscure browsers, etc? Thank you, Hugh From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 09:53:52 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri Mar 11 09:48:41 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <4231B100.7070508@gmail.com> why the lucky stiff wrote: > We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down low for > now-- a.k.a. sshhh-- > > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ > I much prefer Michael's "Clean" 1.0 . It's, well, *cleaner*, crisp, more modern; the header wastes less space, logo is not the routine, semi-realistic Ruby gem. The Clean logo scales well, and lends itself better to T-shirts, business cards, and other re-use. The information on the page is also more focused on practical usage. For example, there is no need to publish recent blog headlines; better to have a link to a list of blogs and use the saved space more effectively (as Michael has done). Overall, the Clean design does more with a better use of space. Like Ruby itself. (On a side note, I can see possible problems with encouraging discussion here, and on ruby-talk, and as well as in blog comments. There are likely to be duplicate discussions, with people missing good points unless they are actively following all sources.) James Britt From agorilla at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 10:01:21 2005 From: agorilla at gmail.com (Bill Guindon) Date: Fri Mar 11 09:56:56 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <67a2229205031107012f863b27@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, 10 Mar 2005 23:48:16 -0700, why the lucky stiff wrote: > http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ Both look fantastic, but in general, I prefer the design of "Ruby Red". I agree with Martin Ankerl that the dark red box is a bit too strong, but I like having that section "pop". On the content side, I prefer the "Clean" layout. The content of Ruby Red seems to lean too much towards the news side of things, I prefer the "Getting Started", "Participate" (which should have an 'Others' for IRC, etc.), and the code samples. Also liked DHH's suggestion for animated code samples. Overall, great stuff! and thanks! -- Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla) From curt at hibbs.com Fri Mar 11 10:04:42 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:00:18 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hugh Sasse wrote: > > I prefer the Ruby logo on this one to the other, I think everyone likes this (me, too)! It really is beautiful. However, if we did go with something this detailed, we would need to come up with some simplified versions that could be used for a favicon, or printed on a t-shirt or cap. > The idea of presenting clear code is good. It tends to make > "hello World" look a bit laboured. though. What about stea-- I > mean borrowing with permission, the web download example from the > Pickaxe, which shows how one can do serious work in a few lines? This is an excellent suggestion! That is an awesome choice for a piece of sample code. I'm sure Dave would have no problem with that. Curt From curt at hibbs.com Fri Mar 11 10:07:43 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:03:19 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <4231B100.7070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: James Britt wrote: > > I much prefer Michael's "Clean" 1.0 . It's, well, *cleaner*, crisp, > more modern; the header wastes less space, logo is not the routine, > semi-realistic Ruby gem. The Clean logo scales well, and lends itself > better to T-shirts, business cards, and other re-use. This is my take as well, unless its possible to create alternate versions of the other logo that were simplified and more stylized (as I said in a previous post). > (On a side note, I can see possible problems with encouraging discussion > here, and on ruby-talk, and as well as in blog comments. There are > likely to be duplicate discussions, with people missing good points > unless they are actively following all sources.) I would not encourage any discussion on ruby-talk... that's why we create this ML. Curt From curt at hibbs.com Fri Mar 11 10:10:39 2005 From: curt at hibbs.com (Curt Hibbs) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:06:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Curt Hibbs wrote: > > I would not encourage any discussion on ruby-talk... that's why we create > this ML. Oops, I just saw Why's posting to ruby-talk. we should at least encourage commenters to join this ML for the discussion. Curt From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Fri Mar 11 10:10:53 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:06:23 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <42319F5C.9040702@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <28ba3ed1d651ac7aeacc25859356d08f@infofiend.com> On Mar 11, 2005, at 09:43, Hugh Sasse Staff Elec Eng wrote: > I prefer the Ruby logo on this one to the other, but I'd want to > put a bit of specular reflection on the top surface and on the > bottom facets, so it looks more polished. But that's a very minor > point, offered in the hope it's some use... Wow, I think that's the first comment I've heard on how the gem could be *better*. I'm not enough of an artist to know quite what you mean, but I'm sure that it's a useful comment. ;) > The idea of presenting clear code is good. It tends to make > "hello World" look a bit laboured. though. What about stea-- I > mean borrowing with permission, the web download example from the > Pickaxe, which shows how one can do serious work in a few lines? It's an unrealistic example, but it does show off the core elements of Ruby's syntax in a few lines. I don't think anybody would be confused and think that that much code is *necessary* to print "Hello World". We've also discussed having a set of different code snippets on the main page, and showing a random one each time. The advantage there is that we don't have to try to pick the one perfect example, and don't have to try to get everything good about Ruby into one snippet. The disadvantage is that instead of having to come up with only 1 code example, we need a bunch of examples. > Anyway, it's good stuff, keep it coming. Can we see a mockup > directly, so we can critique it with obscure browsers, etc? Sure, just not yet. We do want the sites to be accessible and to work well in different browsers. I think the goal was to first show a screenshot version so that everybody would see the same thing, and would know what the goal is. The next step would be translating those mockups to functional CSS/HTML pages and starting work on making them proper standards-compliant, multi-browser-friendly web pages. Ben From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Fri Mar 11 10:18:29 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:13:58 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <4ea17b71087459d89dcbb0b9e9d272ee@loudthinking.com> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <4ea17b71087459d89dcbb0b9e9d272ee@loudthinking.com> Message-ID: <6f3c220dd9bb8b15f01559ab1806cf1b@infofiend.com> On Mar 11, 2005, at 06:41, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote: > Just one more thing. If we are to show a code snippet, I think it > would be way more interesting to do it in a dynamic form. See the > small gif anims on http://macromates.com/ as an example. Personally, I really hate animated images. I told Firefox to only show me the first frame of any animated image, and to me that has become the reason I won't use another browser. It really bothers me to have things constantly moving when I'm trying to read the text next to them. I opened up another browser and checked out macromates. I can see how it might be useful to show animated images when you're trying to show text-folding, or other similar things, I just still don't like it. I'd much prefer a "before" and "after" image to show what's happening. Ben From martin.ankerl at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 10:20:27 2005 From: martin.ankerl at gmail.com (Martin Ankerl) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:16:03 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: <4231B100.7070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I much prefer Michael's "Clean" 1.0 . It's, well, *cleaner*, crisp, > > more modern; the header wastes less space, logo is not the routine, > > semi-realistic Ruby gem. The Clean logo scales well, and lends itself > > better to T-shirts, business cards, and other re-use. > > This is my take as well, unless its possible to create alternate versions of > the other logo that were simplified and more stylized (as I said in a > previous post). IMHO the ruby logo should not focus too much on providing *one* stylized version of the ruby-gem that represents Ruby, I think it is better to be more open. Just like Linux, whenever I see a penguin in some form I think of Linux (well, maybe I am too much of a geek...). Having a polymorphic logo like this is really nice, and there are already a lot of ruby-pages that have their own ruby-gem which all look different, but still are easily recognizable as Ruby. -- Martin Ankerl | http://martinus.geekisp.com/ From dblack at wobblini.net Fri Mar 11 10:24:49 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:20:24 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] question about ads Message-ID: Hi -- I notice that ruby-lang.org has Google ads. Is this likely to be the case even after the re-design? David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From agorilla at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 10:43:39 2005 From: agorilla at gmail.com (Bill Guindon) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:39:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <6f3c220dd9bb8b15f01559ab1806cf1b@infofiend.com> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <4ea17b71087459d89dcbb0b9e9d272ee@loudthinking.com> <6f3c220dd9bb8b15f01559ab1806cf1b@infofiend.com> Message-ID: <67a2229205031107432d9b65e1@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 10:18:29 -0500, Ben Giddings wrote: > On Mar 11, 2005, at 06:41, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote: > > Just one more thing. If we are to show a code snippet, I think it > > would be way more interesting to do it in a dynamic form. See the > > small gif anims on http://macromates.com/ as an example. > > Personally, I really hate animated images. I told Firefox to only show > me the first frame of any animated image, and to me that has become the > reason I won't use another browser. It really bothers me to have > things constantly moving when I'm trying to read the text next to them. Good point. > I opened up another browser and checked out macromates. I can see how > it might be useful to show animated images when you're trying to show > text-folding, or other similar things, I just still don't like it. I'd > much prefer a "before" and "after" image to show what's happening. What about a few different code fragments that you can prev/next through? Get a quick taste of a variety of things that can be done in a few lines. -- Bill Guindon (aka aGorilla) From halostatue at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 10:43:53 2005 From: halostatue at gmail.com (Austin Ziegler) Date: Fri Mar 11 10:54:18 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <4231B100.7070508@gmail.com> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <4231B100.7070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e7db91105031107431cb10559@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 07:53:52 -0700, James Britt wrote: > why the lucky stiff wrote: >> We're still working on this site a bit, so keep it on the down >> low for now-- a.k.a. sshhh-- >> http://redhanded.hobix.com/redesign2005/ > I much prefer Michael's "Clean" 1.0 . It's, well, *cleaner*, > crisp, more modern; the header wastes less space, logo is not the > routine, semi-realistic Ruby gem. The Clean logo scales well, and > lends itself better to T-shirts, business cards, and other re-use. Mmmm. The logo is one of the things that turns me off about 'clean'; I don't particularly like any of them; the primary one looks a lot like a "page" icon (you know, the square with the turned corner). I *do* think that something a bit more stylized is better than the rendered image (although that's a beautiful image, John), but not the ones that are there. I'm not really sure how to express it beyond that. I *really* like the big red box in the Ruby Red on the front page (it's a lot like the Firefox page in that respect), but I agree that the sections should be cleaned up, a bit. The Download box is great -- but could stand to use some icons like in the Clean download box. The Clean download box suffers because it refers specifically to Linux -- and probably points to the .tar.gz source. Unless and until there is a standard binary distribution for Mac OS X, that should probably be handled a bit differently. Maybe this could be DHTMLised and hideable. I would recommend, at least until the Windows Installer supports the full set of features of Ruby the way that the separate build does, we want to link to both of them (even though I use the Windows Installer version exclusively). The Learn is in a great place -- I don't like the smaller box on the side in Clean. It would be nice to have a page on package management, but I'm not sure where it fits best. I prefer the Participate box to the Build box, but think it would be better as "Community" with mailing lists, user groups, weblogs, and RubyForge. I don't care for the "Top Ruby Projects" feed from RubyForge. First, they aren't necessarily "top" -- they're "Most Downloaded." I think that the ruby project advert is a better use of that space (as with the "Ruby on Rails" box on the Ruby Red page). I'm not as concerned as others about the blog feed, but on balance I'd prefer it NOT be there, or maybe a "last 5 topics on ruby-talk", since most of Ruby's discussion happens on ruby-talk. I generally prefer the 3-column look of Clean to the 4-column layout of Ruby Red, but I do like the big red box. Also, in Clean's alternative logos, I prefer the coloured "Ruby is an open-source" boxes to the plain one on the main. -austin -- Austin Ziegler * halostatue@gmail.com * Alternate: austin@halostatue.ca From james.britt at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 12:03:09 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Fri Mar 11 11:57:53 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4231CF4D.30400@gmail.com> Curt Hibbs wrote: ... > I would not encourage any discussion on ruby-talk... that's why we create > this ML. There was an announcement there about the mock-up blog, so expect discussion there as well (despite the exhortation to post to this list or the blog). James From rvit-ml at magical-cat.org Fri Mar 11 18:07:27 2005 From: rvit-ml at magical-cat.org (ES) Date: Fri Mar 11 18:03:02 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] How do I [thing] in Ruby? In-Reply-To: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <16269.192.152.100.150.1110582447.squirrel@webmail.bidwell.textdrive.com> As an aside suggestion; in addition to/instead of the "Ruby for [language] programmers", there should be a section labeled "How do I [thing] in Ruby". It would show common tasks, creating a webserver etc., maybe arranged by category ("Nuby", "Web", "UNIX", "GUI", etc.). These Ruby solutions could be accompanied by (poorly written:) comparative solutions in other languages. Then, in the event that a particular aspect is not satisfactorily covered by these examples, there'd be a box to fill in a request and the reqester's e-mail address; this request is then forwarded to ruby-talk (and maybe #ruby-lang). Once a satisfactory solution is formulated, it gets mailed to the requester and added to the list on the page. E From todd at slack.net Fri Mar 11 18:26:51 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Fri Mar 11 18:16:17 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] How do I [thing] in Ruby? In-Reply-To: <16269.192.152.100.150.1110582447.squirrel@webmail.bidwell.textdrive.com> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <16269.192.152.100.150.1110582447.squirrel@webmail.bidwell.textdrive.com> Message-ID: <20050311232651.GA12042@detroit.slack.net> * ES [2005-03-11 18:14]: > As an aside suggestion; in addition to/instead of the "Ruby for [language] > programmers", there should be a section labeled "How do I [thing] in Ruby". > It would show common tasks, creating a webserver etc., maybe arranged by > category ("Nuby", "Web", "UNIX", "GUI", etc.). These Ruby solutions could be > accompanied by (poorly written:) comparative solutions in other languages. I posted a similar idea to c.l.r a bit ago (and python a year or two ago, for naught) : ================================== "Using Python^H^H^H^H^H^HRuby For..." Web Programming Education (CGI, App Servers, etc) (Teaching programming,class texts,&c) Scientific Graphical Interfaces (GUI) (genome, biochem, &c) (wx, tk, etc.) Networking Statistical/Financial (servers, sockets, etc) (numeric, financial libs, etc) ================================== I primarily meant this as a quick guide or catalog though, as opposed to contrasting ruby vs. x-lang examples. I'd tend to think specific code examples should live either in the docs and/or the 'representative' projects in each category though. This sort of listing would be great for someone showing up and thinking "okay, I'm sick of perl, can I rewrite my bio app in ruby? Are there any libs written yet?" One click, maybe an intro paragraph ("ruby has been in use in science since blah blah...") followed by a maintained, edited list of links - probably in this case starting with http://www.bioruby.org/ (?) and so forth. I think this is a common usage of a language site, at least it should be, based on the number of people who post in newsgroups and lists saying "are there any libs for ___ in ruby?" > Then, in the event that a particular aspect is not satisfactorily covered > by these examples, there'd be a box to fill in a request and the reqester's > e-mail address; this request is then forwarded to ruby-talk (and maybe > #ruby-lang). Once a satisfactory solution is formulated, it gets mailed to > the requester and added to the list on the page. that would be a nice touch and good way of leveraging community knowledge out there... as long as it was reasonably edited and not a complete free-for-all (would approach unusable quickly in that case...) -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From rampant at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 18:43:47 2005 From: rampant at gmail.com (Douglas Livingstone) Date: Fri Mar 11 18:39:22 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Re: [ANN] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> Message-ID: <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:42:49 +0900, Anders Engstr?m wrote: > > I like the design of both layouts. But IMO this poll should really be > about selecting the "default" template for ruby-lang.org. I don't know > how flexible the (X)HTML is - but shouldn't it be possible to ship a > bunch of CSS's and let the user choose which one to use? > It isn't quite that simple. The XHTML has the content, the CSS has the presentation, fine, but you'll notice that the layouts have different content. That means that we still have to pick one of the two (or make a mix or and things or remove things etc etc) you can't just say "use both". Michel's "Clean" 1.0 gets my vote at the moment. The content has more of a "this is what Ruby is" slant (love the code example right at the top) than the "Ruby Red" one. There are two things I would change right off: 1) The logo. None of the suggested logos seem to capture the elegance of the Ruby language. The three squareish logos with the "Clean" layout seem too industrial and unfriendly. The fourth read and white one... what is it? It doesn't say anything to me. John's "Ruby Red" logo is a nice picture of a ruby, but has the opposite problem to Michel's one: it is far too complicated. But you know what? The first thing I noticed about the blog page when I loaded it up: that Ruby Lang 2005 logo. Perfect. It has the simplicity of Michel's squares, but with a detail Ruby in the bottom right. It also uses the best font of the logos on display. The letters stand upright unlike the ones in Michel's demo, but they are uncluttered and strong unlike the one in John's logo. 2) This one is simpler to say, but harder to impliment. I'd like a news item added to the menu. I don't think there should be news on the front page until there is regular and interesting news - something the current site lacks, and I see no need to repeat mistakes. The news page could be a combination of the "Latest News" and "From the Blogs" section from John's demo. That should be on the site, but again it isn't front page stuff. When a new release comes out, it should be simple enough to put a "New Release!" sticker on the downloads box on the right. Both designs have an "info" box at the top. The difference between them is that Michel's says something about Ruby, then has one link to learn more. That's good, and is the sort of thing that can stay there untill Ruby changes into something else. On the "Ruby Red" one, there are far too many links to far too many different things. "Twenty Minutes" "Tutorials" "Documentation" "From other languages"... where are you going to start? The visual weight of the box is also too strong - it looks like the most important part of the page, but only has links to other things, it doesn't do anything by itself. That's a problem with the current site too. Lots of links to other stuff, but it doesn't actually say anything. Fair enough, you need the download links there - but most people want to know what they are downloading first. With "Clear", the at the top of the page is the text saying why Ruby exists and what it is. Then once you've read that, just on the right you are looking at the download links. Not satisfied you want Ruby yet? Just click the "learn more" link. Note that the "learn more" and the "download" links will always be close together with this layout, meaning that there are less places to look for what you want once you've read the intro. The little arrows are great too. In "Ruby Red" there is no visual distinction between the package managment systems and the Download Ruby links. That just makes it harder to find either. The little arrows are bold, but don't clutter. They are easier to understand than little pink dots too. In Michel's, I like the language links at the top. Chinese should probably be added there - I believe there is an active translation for that already? What is the status there? The single text box is good too - I'm not sure what would be in the dropdown box in "Ruby Red". Perhaps there will have to be one in the final design because documentation, general info and tutorials etc are all over the place, but hopefully a solution can be found there. The Ruby on Rails box just feels like clutter to me. Something which has to be in the Resources section though. Possibly a reference to it on the download page too, but this is Ruby-Lang, not Rails-Lang, and the site should support that. Why do none of the suggested logos have Ruby Lang written on them? It seems like an obvious thing to have, unless someone can get ahold of a ruby.something URL. Nice work everyone, great to see progress :) Can't wait to have another look in a couple of weeks! Douglas From todd at slack.net Fri Mar 11 19:05:23 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Fri Mar 11 18:54:49 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] MS Trebuchet?! In-Reply-To: <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> * Douglas Livingstone [2005-03-11 18:50]: > Michel's one: it is far too complicated. But you know what? The first > thing I noticed about the blog page when I loaded it up: that Ruby > Lang 2005 logo. Perfect. It has the simplicity of Michel's squares, > but with a detail Ruby in the bottom right. It also uses the best font > of the logos on display. The letters stand upright unlike the ones in > Michel's demo, but they are uncluttered and strong unlike the one in > John's logo. Do we really want to use Microsoft Trebuchet for the typeface? Ick. Besides any quasi-political rationales, it's made for on-screen body text, not big "display" type. I think it's going to be pretty tough to find a decent typeface that's free. There's a reason the good ones cost money in general. And if only one face was used (one weight/style), even top-notch fonts are quite affordable - $25 or so often for a professional face. Families of a particular typeface (light, medium, bold, italic, etc.) cost more obviously, often over $100, but even then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. Even in that case I'm sure collecting $1 from a bunch of people wouldn't be a big hurdle... Not that I have the perfect one in mind, just hoping those running the show are willing to consider this ... -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From todd at slack.net Fri Mar 11 19:06:47 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Fri Mar 11 18:56:13 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] MS Trebuchet?! In-Reply-To: <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <20050312000647.GB13826@detroit.slack.net> * Todd Grimason [2005-03-11 19:05]: obviously, often over $100, but even then still reasonable. but even > then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then > still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still > reasonable. but even then still reasonable. Even in that case I'm sure hehe, oops. still working on that emacs -> vim crossover... -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net Fri Mar 11 20:10:18 2005 From: ruby-talk at whytheluckystiff.net (why the lucky stiff) Date: Fri Mar 11 20:05:26 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] MS Trebuchet?! In-Reply-To: <20050312000647.GB13826@detroit.slack.net> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> <20050312000647.GB13826@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <4232417A.6080908@whytheluckystiff.net> Todd Grimason wrote: > * Todd Grimason [2005-03-11 19:05]: > obviously, often over $100, but even then still reasonable. but even > >>then still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then >>still reasonable. but even then still reasonable. but even then still >>reasonable. but even then still reasonable. Even in that case I'm sure > > > hehe, oops. still working on that emacs -> vim crossover... > Wow, emacs really helps you get your point across!! My choice of Trebuchet for the blog header was only in the interest of getting the page up in the eighteen-and-two-thirds minutes I had to make it happen. It's flimsy. So, yeah, we'll steer clear of such entrapments. _why From todd at slack.net Fri Mar 11 20:19:17 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Fri Mar 11 20:08:42 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] MS Trebuchet?! In-Reply-To: <4232417A.6080908@whytheluckystiff.net> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> <20050312000647.GB13826@detroit.slack.net> <4232417A.6080908@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <20050312011917.GC13826@detroit.slack.net> * why the lucky stiff [2005-03-11 20:16]: > > Wow, emacs really helps you get your point across!! hehe, I wish I could blame emacs for it! > My choice of Trebuchet for the blog header was only in the interest of > getting the page up in the eighteen-and-two-thirds minutes I had to make > it happen. It's flimsy. right, that was my guess. I was more responding to the praise of it - I do like the square with the ruby in it, just not Trebuchet... And I wanted to distill the common notion that any non-free font costs a zillion dollars (it can seem so for small projects). for a high-visibility spot like this though I'd say it's well-worth a few bucks! -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From rampant at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 21:21:40 2005 From: rampant at gmail.com (Douglas Livingstone) Date: Fri Mar 11 21:17:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] MS Trebuchet?! In-Reply-To: <20050312011917.GC13826@detroit.slack.net> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> <20050312000647.GB13826@detroit.slack.net> <4232417A.6080908@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050312011917.GC13826@detroit.slack.net> Message-ID: <563094460503111821137027c8@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, 11 Mar 2005 20:19:17 -0500, Todd Grimason wrote: > > right, that was my guess. I was more responding to the praise of it - I > do like the square with the ruby in it, just not Trebuchet... > Yes, you're right :) If it was a choice, it would be better than the two proposals; but it isn't a choice... What sort of licenses do these $20-100 fonts come with? Douglas From todd at slack.net Fri Mar 11 21:57:50 2005 From: todd at slack.net (Todd Grimason) Date: Fri Mar 11 21:47:14 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] MS Trebuchet?! In-Reply-To: <563094460503111821137027c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> <20050312000523.GA13826@detroit.slack.net> <20050312000647.GB13826@detroit.slack.net> <4232417A.6080908@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050312011917.GC13826@detroit.slack.net> <563094460503111821137027c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20050312025750.GD13826@detroit.slack.net> * Douglas Livingstone [2005-03-11 21:28]: > What sort of licenses do these $20-100 fonts come with? Obviously it varies, and of course IANAL, but here's an overview: http://www.fontshop.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=virtual.content&area=sf_info&content=/virtual/fssf/info/mul.htm (lovely url...) In general, a license allows the font on 1-5 CPUs, so it wouldn't be like you could buy one for the ruby "community" -- whomever the designer was would probably buy the copy. Pretty similar to most commercial software I guess (except for the > 1 CPU part). You can also "try out" different faces on most sites, by typing in the word(s) you want and it will render that for you. -- ______________________________ toddgrimason*todd-AT-slack.net From ng at johnwlong.com Sat Mar 12 00:24:52 2005 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Sat Mar 12 00:20:25 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> Message-ID: <42327D24.6020206@johnwlong.com> David A. Black wrote: > Very nice work by all concerned. I don't have a strong preference as > between the two on view. One question for John: would it be possible > to avoid the duplication between the navigation bar and those > navigation squares? I know what people are going to say: the navbar > has to serve on different sub-pages and therefore can't be changed. I > tend to think it should be anyway :-) It looks a little cluttered to > have "Learn Ruby" and "Download" right about "Learn" and "Download". That's an interesting suggestion. I suppose that it would depend on how the site was structured. I personally believe it is important to repeat the major site sections on the home page in the header and footer. I really value the importance of simple designs with lots of repetition (between pages). Perhaps the solution is to make the Download, Learn, and Build sections subsections of other major sections. For instance, Learn could easily be a subsection of the documentation section. On the other side, I'm not sure the ideal (no-repetition on the same page) is worth splitting hairs over. Sometimes the search for the ideal can lead to very unpractical solutions. I much prefer the pragmatic approach. At some point we need to map out the site completely. Right now we are just experimenting. Once we get down to the "raw" html we may change quite a few things. "In theory there is no difference between practice and theory, in practice there is." -- John Long http://wiseheartdesign.com From dblack at wobblini.net Sat Mar 12 07:10:46 2005 From: dblack at wobblini.net (David A. Black) Date: Sat Mar 12 07:06:22 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <42327D24.6020206@johnwlong.com> References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <42327D24.6020206@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, John W. Long wrote: > David A. Black wrote: >> Very nice work by all concerned. I don't have a strong preference as >> between the two on view. One question for John: would it be possible >> to avoid the duplication between the navigation bar and those >> navigation squares? I know what people are going to say: the navbar >> has to serve on different sub-pages and therefore can't be changed. I >> tend to think it should be anyway :-) It looks a little cluttered to >> have "Learn Ruby" and "Download" right about "Learn" and "Download". > > That's an interesting suggestion. I suppose that it would depend on how the > site was structured. I personally believe it is important to repeat the major > site sections on the home page in the header and footer. I really value the > importance of simple designs with lots of repetition (between pages). Perhaps > the solution is to make the Download, Learn, and Build sections subsections > of other major sections. For instance, Learn could easily be a subsection of > the documentation section. > > On the other side, I'm not sure the ideal (no-repetition on the same page) is > worth splitting hairs over. Sometimes the search for the ideal can lead to > very unpractical solutions. I much prefer the pragmatic approach. At some > point we need to map out the site completely. Right now we are just > experimenting. Once we get down to the "raw" html we may change quite a few > things. > > "In theory there is no difference between practice and theory, in practice > there is." I didn't really mean to probe the theoretical substrata. It just looks slightly cluttered :-) I assumed things will change as work continues, so I wanted to mention one or two things I thought might merit attention during that process. No deep design philosophy to be extrapolated :-) One possible resolution would be to put the navbar at the very top of the page, instead of between the header and the "real" content. David -- David A. Black dblack@wobblini.net From ng at johnwlong.com Sat Mar 12 07:43:31 2005 From: ng at johnwlong.com (John W. Long) Date: Sat Mar 12 07:39:24 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: References: <42313F30.6030103@whytheluckystiff.net> <42327D24.6020206@johnwlong.com> Message-ID: <4232E3F3.5020701@johnwlong.com> David A. Black wrote: > On Fri, 11 Mar 2005, John W. Long wrote: > >> David A. Black wrote: >> >>> Very nice work by all concerned. I don't have a strong preference as >>> between the two on view. One question for John: would it be possible >>> to avoid the duplication between the navigation bar and those >>> navigation squares? I know what people are going to say: the navbar >>> has to serve on different sub-pages and therefore can't be changed. I >>> tend to think it should be anyway :-) It looks a little cluttered to >>> have "Learn Ruby" and "Download" right about "Learn" and "Download". >> >> >> That's an interesting suggestion. I suppose that it would depend on >> how the site was structured. I personally believe it is important to >> repeat the major site sections on the home page in the header and >> footer. I really value the importance of simple designs with lots of >> repetition (between pages). Perhaps the solution is to make the >> Download, Learn, and Build sections subsections of other major >> sections. For instance, Learn could easily be a subsection of the >> documentation section. >> >> On the other side, I'm not sure the ideal (no-repetition on the same >> page) is worth splitting hairs over. Sometimes the search for the >> ideal can lead to very unpractical solutions. I much prefer the >> pragmatic approach. At some point we need to map out the site >> completely. Right now we are just experimenting. Once we get down to >> the "raw" html we may change quite a few things. >> >> "In theory there is no difference between practice and theory, in >> practice there is." > > > I didn't really mean to probe the theoretical substrata. It just > looks slightly cluttered :-) I assumed things will change as work > continues, so I wanted to mention one or two things I thought might > merit attention during that process. No deep design philosophy to be > extrapolated :-) It's a good point, and something to take under consideration. Thanks for bringing it up. =) > One possible resolution would be to put the navbar at the very top of > the page, instead of between the header and the "real" content. I have expirimented a little with this, but couldn't find something that I felt was as visually pleasing as the Ruby Red design. I've put it on my mental list of things to think about. Perhaps I can work a solution into my next comp. Thanks. -- John Long http://wisheartdesign.com From david at loudthinking.com Sat Mar 12 08:16:28 2005 From: david at loudthinking.com (David Heinemeier Hansson) Date: Sat Mar 12 08:12:08 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] question about ads In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41c5c170b10e1dab2e102b88a3f22c7f@loudthinking.com> > I notice that ruby-lang.org has Google ads. Is this likely to be the > case even after the re-design? I would hope not. I gather the revenue generated is minimal. Rather make up for that in a one-time pledge if funds are needed to run the site. Ads make the thing look cheap and are in my opinion unsuited for a site with the character of ruby-lang. -- David Heinemeier Hansson, http://www.basecamphq.com/ -- Web-based Project Management http://www.rubyonrails.org/ -- Web-application framework for Ruby http://www.loudthinking.com/ -- Broadcasting Brain From james.britt at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 09:39:50 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Sat Mar 12 09:34:33 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Re: [ANN] Redesign 2005 Blog In-Reply-To: <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> References: <4231A71C.80801@whytheluckystiff.net> <20050311173543.GA13268@metamorph.gnejs.net> <5630944605031115436d77ee1b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4232FF36.60603@gmail.com> Douglas Livingstone wrote: > On Sat, 12 Mar 2005 02:42:49 +0900, Anders Engstr?m wrote: > >>I like the design of both layouts. But IMO this poll should really be >>about selecting the "default" template for ruby-lang.org. I don't know >>how flexible the (X)HTML is - but shouldn't it be possible to ship a >>bunch of CSS's and let the user choose which one to use? >> > > > It isn't quite that simple. The XHTML has the content, the CSS has the > presentation, fine, but you'll notice that the layouts have different > content. That means that we still have to pick one of the two (or make > a mix or and things or remove things etc etc) you can't just say "use > both". I certainly hope that content & layout are not bound together when selecting a layout. The overall look and feel, and what is rendered using that look and feel, are two different things. For example, I much prefer the Clean layout, but see no reason for all those "Ruby for #{language}" links, and throwing in for the Clean layout is not to be taken as support for that particular content. James From bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com Sat Mar 12 15:40:22 2005 From: bg-rubytalk at infofiend.com (Ben Giddings) Date: Sat Mar 12 15:36:17 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] question about ads In-Reply-To: <41c5c170b10e1dab2e102b88a3f22c7f@loudthinking.com> References: <41c5c170b10e1dab2e102b88a3f22c7f@loudthinking.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2005, at 08:16, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote: >> I notice that ruby-lang.org has Google ads. Is this likely to be the >> case even after the re-design? > > I would hope not. I gather the revenue generated is minimal. Rather > make up for that in a one-time pledge if funds are needed to run the > site. Ads make the thing look cheap and are in my opinion unsuited for > a site with the character of ruby-lang. I don't think we're the ones who can decide about ads. I think it will be up to the people paying for hosting bandwidth. In any case, I agree with DHH. I would hope that there are no ads, and if there are some ads, that they are better than the google ones. If ads are a necessity, I wonder if we can use better, targeted ads that fit well with the design. An idea might be to work out a deal with Ruby-related commercial sites. An example might be Basecamp HQ, Snowdevil.ca, Textdrive.com (web hosting service with ROR). Ben From rvit-ml at magical-cat.org Sat Mar 12 15:58:46 2005 From: rvit-ml at magical-cat.org (ES) Date: Sat Mar 12 15:54:20 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] question about ads In-Reply-To: References: <41c5c170b10e1dab2e102b88a3f22c7f@loudthinking.com> Message-ID: <18249.192.152.100.150.1110661126.squirrel@webmail.bidwell.textdrive.com> On Sat, March 12, 2005 8:40 pm, Ben Giddings said: > On Mar 12, 2005, at 08:16, David Heinemeier Hansson wrote: >>> I notice that ruby-lang.org has Google ads. Is this likely to be the >>> case even after the re-design? >> >> I would hope not. I gather the revenue generated is minimal. Rather >> make up for that in a one-time pledge if funds are needed to run the >> site. Ads make the thing look cheap and are in my opinion unsuited for >> a site with the character of ruby-lang. > > I don't think we're the ones who can decide about ads. I think it will > be up to the people paying for hosting bandwidth. In any case, I agree > with DHH. I would hope that there are no ads, and if there are some > ads, that they are better than the google ones. I would not mind paying yearly Ruby Users' Union dues provided they're reasonable. I'm sure hosting could be covered by some such donations if some sort of a momentum can be gathered. Another idea certainly worthwhile of consideration is setting up a CafePress store or something like that for folks to buy Ruby merchandise, all proceeds going to ruby-lang (or a designated nonprofit). I already have several Ruby-related t-shirts etc. I have had printed at a local shop. > If ads are a necessity, I wonder if we can use better, targeted ads > that fit well with the design. An idea might be to work out a deal > with Ruby-related commercial sites. An example might be Basecamp HQ, > Snowdevil.ca, Textdrive.com (web hosting service with ROR). > > Ben E From rob.02004 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 11:30:41 2005 From: rob.02004 at gmail.com (Rob .) Date: Mon Mar 21 11:25:54 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Propose we use Rubyconf 2004 tshirt logo Message-ID: <525df23a050321083036da8ae7@mail.gmail.com> The Ruby logo on the Rubyconf 2004 t-shirt is a good contender for the website logo. It's clean, stylistic design is attractive and it clearly looks like a ruby. Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to the design on the web. Perhaps someone can post it somewhere - who holds the copyright I wonder? Cheers, Rob From chad at chadfowler.com Mon Mar 21 14:39:37 2005 From: chad at chadfowler.com (chad@chadfowler.com) Date: Mon Mar 21 13:28:27 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Propose we use Rubyconf 2004 tshirt logo In-Reply-To: <525df23a050321083036da8ae7@mail.gmail.com> References: <525df23a050321083036da8ae7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <32198.65.121.95.246.1111433977.squirrel@65.121.95.246> > The Ruby logo on the Rubyconf 2004 t-shirt is a good contender for the > website logo. It's clean, stylistic design is attractive and it > clearly looks like a ruby. > > Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to the design on the web. Perhaps > someone can post it somewhere - who holds the copyright I wonder? This logo was created for me by a designer here in Louisville. We have rights to it, but I don't have electronic media. Would be best to recreate it if possible as opposed to getting him to reproduce it. Chad From blaumag at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 17:58:06 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Mon Mar 21 17:53:19 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Propose we use Rubyconf 2004 tshirt logo In-Reply-To: <32198.65.121.95.246.1111433977.squirrel@65.121.95.246> References: <525df23a050321083036da8ae7@mail.gmail.com> <32198.65.121.95.246.1111433977.squirrel@65.121.95.246> Message-ID: <6a65064605032114585ae6659f@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:39:37 -0500 (EST), chad@chadfowler.com wrote: > > The Ruby logo on the Rubyconf 2004 t-shirt is a good contender for the > > website logo. It's clean, stylistic design is attractive and it > > clearly looks like a ruby. > > > > Unfortunately I couldn't find a link to the design on the web. Perhaps > > someone can post it somewhere - who holds the copyright I wonder? > > This logo was created for me by a designer here in Louisville. We have > rights to it, but I don't have electronic media. Would be best to recreate > it if possible as opposed to getting him to reproduce it. I can reproduce it if I see it. A picture would be enough. Michel. From james.britt at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 18:12:11 2005 From: james.britt at gmail.com (James Britt) Date: Mon Mar 21 18:05:43 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] Propose we use Rubyconf 2004 tshirt logo In-Reply-To: <525df23a050321083036da8ae7@mail.gmail.com> References: <525df23a050321083036da8ae7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <423F54CB.9050209@gmail.com> Rob . wrote: > The Ruby logo on the Rubyconf 2004 t-shirt is a good contender for the > website logo. It's clean, stylistic design is attractive and it > clearly looks like a ruby. I disagree. It seems to work OK in the context of that shirt, though it looks something like a spider web or a church window. James From blaumag at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 18:03:48 2005 From: blaumag at gmail.com (Michel Martens) Date: Fri Mar 25 17:58:54 2005 Subject: [Vit-discuss] [Vit-core] Inspiration? Message-ID: <6a6506460503251503ce74b13@mail.gmail.com> In the thread "Getting the word to conventional programmers", Csaba Henk mentioned a language I didn't know: Io (http://www.iolanguage.com/). I went to the website and found it was very well organized. I got a grasp of the language in no time. Michel.