[Rubygems-developers] Design notes for RubyGems 2
gsinclair at soyabean.com.au
Tue Jun 8 11:44:02 EDT 2004
On Tuesday, June 8, 2004, 10:54:38 PM, Chad wrote:
> On 8/6/2004, at 8:35 AM, Curt Hibbs wrote:
>> Chad wrote:
>>> On 6/6/2004, at 1:24 PM, Gavin Sinclair wrote:
>>>> <rubygems 2 design.rtf>
>>> Gavin, thanks for the effort!
>>> I don't see anything wrong with what you've got here (other than some
>>> rough bits, of course), but I also don't see the value in switching
>>> everything right now. You mentioned "process-oriented" vs.
>>> "object-oriented" several times here on this list, and I don't see why
>>> "process-oriented" is a bad thing. I'd like some concrete examples of
>>> where the code needs specific help or the current design gets in the
>>> way in some fundamental way.
I personally find the current code hard to understand, and that's not
for want of trying, having worked on lots of areas of it. There's no
real consistency in the interfaces, and when I'm thinking about how to
add something non-trivial, like caching remote data, I *really* have
to think about it. Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastic effort for a
weekend's effort at a conference, but it hasn't really grown in
maturity since then.
>>> I do believe there are plenty of places that need refactoring, but I
>>> don't think we have a fundamentally bad design.
>> Why not establish the a well-designed, object-based interface like
>> Gavin's (perhaps initially as a wrapper) and then refactor into
> I guess I don't feel like refactoring needs a target. I'm afraid a
> target would become a shoe-horn, vs a natural evolutionary progression.
The design is not really about refactoring; it's about redesign.
Whether or not the current design is flawed, the code is so messy that
I think a genuine refactoring effort would actually be harder than a
redesign. And I've hardly seen any refactoring done this year, which
I think makes the point.
The main point, however, is the introduction of a proper repository.
Although I obviously haven't proved it, I think that's essential for
advancing RubyGems. And it's something you can't get via incremental
refactoring. It's more a case of creating a Repository, making it the
best repository it can be, and then refactoring everything else to use
The reality is that RubyGems is pretty simple. I want an interface to
the main thing in the system - the collection of gems - that is also
simple. Tell it want you want and you get it. Obviously that needs
to be codified somewhat. But the current system is more like
low-level scratching than high-level ease.
>>> Back to "process" vs. "data"...your design document takes some of the
>>> real-world concepts we discuss as we deal with RubyGems and makes them
>>> into classes that can be instantiated and manipulated. I can see how
>>> this would be one good approach you could take to designing the
>>> RubyGems system, but I don't think the absence of these objects is a
>>> bad thing. I think they are just equal alternatives for
>>> conceptualizing and implementing the system. To me, a "Gem" is an
>>> abstract thing. It is, as you say in the document, files and
>>> To me, that's why it doesn't really make sense to have a "Gem"
A GUI app needs data it can share with the user, not (just) processes the
user can apply.
>> Huh? To me that is precisely why its makes sense to have a Gem as an
> I mean that it's an abstract thing that doesn't need to be concrete.
> Making a concrete object out of the Gem is an attempt to take an
> inherently abstract concept and use it as if it's a real Thing.
> Sometimes that makes sense (and it's the first thing that OO designers
> tend to do), but I don't think it does in this case. The spec is the
> metadata and the files are..."File"s :)
That's not quite true: the files are things that you don't necessarily
have; they might be on the other side of the world. The spec's here and the
data is over there. *Something* has to know how to deal with all
this. That responsbility can be shared nicely between the repository
and the gem. The repository finds the data but doesn't interpret it.
The gem knows what that data means. *Something* has to know what it
means; why not the gem?
I really don't think a gem is an abstract concept at all. Data and
metadata is pretty concrete to me.
And the heart of the matter is this. We need a repository that can
aggregate multiple sources of gems, cache information for efficiency,
and give decent reports. The user wants to install a certain gem.
The repository fishes around and finds that gem, and returns it. The
user (well, the app on behalf of the user) gives the gem to an
installer, which installs it. The repository handles any downloading
required, and the app doesn't need to know where the gem came from.
The repository presents a uniform interface and hides the complexity.
Why would you do it any other way?
Then again, I haven't heard your point of view on how a repository
concept should be implemented yet. I'm looking forward to it :)
At the moment, it's quite ridiculous that when you run 'gem -i rpa',
gem will quite happily remote install 'rpa', even though you've
already got the latest version installed. That's a symptom of the
process-based approach, I believe. If it were easy to change this, I
would have by now. Yes, I know I could throw some conditions in there
to avoid it, but that feels like a hack. I prefer not to perpetuate
bad design; rather fix it (unless it's a major bug that needs fixing,
[snip top, middle, and bottom layers]
>>> My mind isn't shut, but I'm starting out not seeing a reason to
>>> switch. If we were starting from scratch, I'd be more likely to
>>> jump on these ideas.
That's the difference in our approaches, I think. Most programs
benefit from a rewrite at some point, as you learn the lessons of
experience. There's usually a period of time where you resist it,
but then your software gets to about version 2.8 and you declare
to the world "Version 3 will be a complete rewrite". That takes a
very long time, and has a decent chance of never getting done.
It's not too hard for me to imagine starting from scratch at this
point in RubyGems' life. Thus my enthusiasm for these ideas. BTW
starting from scratch doesn't mean junking the current code.... until
it's been fully replaced.
>> Theoretically, at least, it doesn't seem like switching should be
>> necessary. But, of course, I say this from the perspective of one
>> who is not intimately familiar with the code.
> I'd be more likely to take Gavin's document as a set of good ideas and
> try to incorporate them when they become the obvious solution to a
> problem that comes up. I don't think setting them as a target for
> refactoring or doing a complete redesign is warranted or advantageous
> at this point.
The benefits of a well-constructed, well-documented system seems quite
advantageous to me. And since I approach all development with the
mentality that the first cut should be thrown away, I see a complete
redesign as very much warranted as some point, and my gut feeling is
we've reached it.
But I know I'm not going to persuade anyone on gut feeling alone, so
I'll see if I can find some more specific deficiencies. To be honest, I
looked through the planned feature list on the wiki and didn't see
anything jump out at me as impossible or really difficult. But if the
code was well presented and well factored, I'd probably have
implemented half of them by now.
More information about the Rubygems-developers