From skra at pantolog.de Tue Jun 5 08:04:19 2012 From: skra at pantolog.de (Sebastian Krause) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 10:04:19 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Differences to Ruby1.9 Message-ID: <4FCDBD83.6070003@pantolog.de> While translating I was wondering which parts can still be applied to Ruby 1.9 and which parts are definitely of historical value only. Part 1 Chapter 1 pretty much applicable to recent Ruby Chapter 2 the actual code examples look different here and there, often things have been added, but in principle everything still applies rest have read it only partially, but from what I've seen and checked, same as chapter02: code examples look different but mechanisms still the same. Part 2 Chapter 8 pretty much applicable, only major change is that 1.9-strings are character strings and not byte strings anymore. Chapter 9 It's an intro to yacc, still applicable Chapter 10 grammar still pretty much the same, code examples look different here and there Rest don't know Part 3 don't know Especially how does the RubyVM fit into the picture? Could somebody explain? From skra at pantolog.de Tue Jun 5 08:20:17 2012 From: skra at pantolog.de (Sebastian Krause) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 10:20:17 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter Message-ID: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> Started translating chapter 5. I noticed that the translation in place is not very faithful. Does anyone know how the file in place was made? Is there someone with a good understanding of GC who can help fact check the translation in place and my translation attempt? For the time being I will add my partially translated file chapter05.textile and keep the other file gc.textile in place. From markthedeveloper at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 08:31:52 2012 From: markthedeveloper at gmail.com (Mark Burns) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 09:31:52 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've taken some stuff from http://www.edwinmeyer.com/Integrated_RHG.html so that whole chapter is the Thornton translation. When you say not very faithful, do you mean inaccurate or just phrasing things in a completely different style? By the way, I'm completely new to translation so not at all clear on how to orchestrate these things. Perhaps it might be good to forge ahead with trying to get as much as possible translated, and think about unifying style later? Or then again it might make sense to come up with overall guidelines, like a coding style, and try to stick to that as we go. I noticed in places the translation talks in the first person which feels unnatural, is that what you are talking about? By the way I'm currently working on the end of chapter 8 (spec) which hadn't been finished. > > On 5 Jun 2012, at 09:20, Sebastian Krause wrote: > > Started translating chapter 5. I noticed that the translation in place > is not very faithful. > > Does anyone know how the file in place was made? Is there someone with a > good understanding of GC who can help fact check the translation in > place and my translation attempt? > > For the time being I will add my partially translated file > chapter05.textile and keep the other file gc.textile in place. > _______________________________________________ > rhg-discussion mailing list > rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skra at pantolog.de Tue Jun 5 09:14:09 2012 From: skra at pantolog.de (Sebastian Krause) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2012 11:14:09 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4FCDCDE1.90205@pantolog.de> (05.06.2012 10:31), Mark Burns wrote: > > I've taken some stuff from > http://www.edwinmeyer.com/Integrated_RHG.html so that whole chapter > is the Thornton > translation. > > When you say not very faithful, do you mean inaccurate or just > phrasing things in a > completely different style? I mean that facts and even whole paragraphs were left out and other non-trivial facts have been added. I am a bit doubtful about some of them but I am not an expert in garbage collection algorithms. > > By the way, I'm completely new to translation so not at all clear on > how to orchestrate these > things. Perhaps it might be good to forge ahead with trying to get as > much as possible translated, > and think about unifying style later? -IMHO, as this is a technical manual the style is not too important ( for the time being ). The facts should be right and the flow of the argument should be consistent. The whole text should be understandable. - Aoki's style himself seems also not very consistent at times. Overall it is quite colloquial and the jokes are on the nerdy side. Here and there he definitely gives his own view about things, but he avoids any Japanese terms for "I". Maybe an English author would use "I" in a similar context here and there. I would leave this question to a native speaker to decide. - I usually translate a paragraph closely and in the second step try to bring it into proper English. In the second step I do not worry to much about the finer structure of the sentence, only about the content. So the actual structure can be quite different from the Japanese original. If one tries to be close to the original, the text tends to become stilted. > > By the way I'm currently working on the end of chapter 8 (spec) which > hadn't been finished. I have added some more a while ago. I hope we didn't double work. > > On 5 Jun 2012, at 09:20, Sebastian Krause wrote: > >> Started translating chapter 5. I noticed that the translation in >> place >> is not very faithful. >> >> Does anyone know how the file in place was made? Is there someone >> with a >> good understanding of GC who can help fact check the translation in >> place and my translation attempt? >> >> For the time being I will add my partially translated file >> chapter05.textile and keep the other file gc.textile in place. >> _______________________________________________ >> rhg-discussion mailing list >> rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion > > > > > _______________________________________________ > rhg-discussion mailing list > rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at gravina.com Tue Jun 5 09:09:08 2012 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 18:09:08 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5 June 2012 17:31, Mark Burns wrote: > the translation talks in the first person which feels > unnatural, is that what > you are talking about? I remember when I translated a small section I translated ??? directly as "Let's ...", when the subject was omitted used first persion etc. This was probably due to my inexperience and so-so Japanese, but being a hacking guide the text also felt a bit more of a casual programmer-to-programmer talk than a dry, technical work. Is that how it comes across to those who can read Japanese better than I? BTW, I wonder if there are some generic Japanese -> English translation guidelines out there? I was able to find this blog post after a little googling, which has some good adivce: http://www.shaneycrawford.com/2007/08/japanese-to-english-translation-tips/ Robert From markthedeveloper at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:29:35 2012 From: markthedeveloper at gmail.com (Mark Burns) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:29:35 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: <4FCDCDE1.90205@pantolog.de> References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> <4FCDCDE1.90205@pantolog.de> Message-ID: > I mean that facts and even whole paragraphs were left out and other > non-trivial facts have been added. I am a bit doubtful about some of them > but I am not an expert in garbage collection algorithms. > > -IMHO, as this is a technical manual the style is not too important ( for > the time being ). The facts should be right and the flow of the argument > should be consistent. The whole text should be understandable. > > *That makes sense to me. In that case we should maybe tidy up some of the Thornton translation to remove the added stuff and fill out the missing sections. Definitely agree about argument being consistent over form/style.* > - Aoki's style himself seems also not very consistent at times. Overall it > is quite colloquial and the jokes are on the nerdy side. Here and there he > definitely gives his own view about things, but he avoids any Japanese > terms for "I". Maybe an English author would use "I" in a similar context > here and there. I would leave this question to a native speaker to decide. > * I'm happy to review any edits you do as a native English speaker.* > By the way I'm currently working on the end of chapter 8 (spec) which > hadn't been finished. > > I have added some more a while ago. I hope we didn't double work. > > > *Probably not, unless you didn't commit it. I guess we'll see in a merge conflict otherwise. * > > > >> On 5 Jun 2012, at 09:20, Sebastian Krause wrote: >> >> Started translating chapter 5. I noticed that the translation in place >> is not very faithful. >> >> Does anyone know how the file in place was made? Is there someone with a >> good understanding of GC who can help fact check the translation in >> place and my translation attempt? >> >> For the time being I will add my partially translated file >> chapter05.textile and keep the other file gc.textile in place. >> _______________________________________________ >> rhg-discussion mailing list >> rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org >> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion >> >> >> > > > _______________________________________________ > rhg-discussion mailing listrhg-discussion at rubyforge.orghttp://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion > > > _______________________________________________ > rhg-discussion mailing list > rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markthedeveloper at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:37:18 2012 From: markthedeveloper at gmail.com (Mark Burns) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:37:18 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Robert, didn't mean for that to sound critical. I guess it could be lack of experience that makes the text come across as unnatural. I don't necessarily feel qualified to comment. My Japanese reading comprehension is definitely slow, and combined with learning the subject matter at the same time it's doubly so. I guess we're all feeling our way through this material. Perhaps there's no absolute "Ruby and C and English and Japanese" experts on this list. (Apologies if there are). Anyway, that guide makes some great points. I might also have a look around for (technical) Japanese -> English translation guides too. On 5 June 2012 10:09, Robert Gravina wrote: > On 5 June 2012 17:31, Mark Burns wrote: > > the translation talks in the first person which feels > > unnatural, is that what > > you are talking about? > > I remember when I translated a small section I translated ??? directly > as "Let's ...", when the subject was omitted used first persion etc. > This was probably due to my inexperience and so-so Japanese, but being > a hacking guide the text also felt a bit more of a casual > programmer-to-programmer talk than a dry, technical work. > > Is that how it comes across to those who can read Japanese better than I? > > BTW, I wonder if there are some generic Japanese -> English > translation guidelines out there? I was able to find this blog post > after a little googling, which has some good adivce: > http://www.shaneycrawford.com/2007/08/japanese-to-english-translation-tips/ > > Robert > _______________________________________________ > rhg-discussion mailing list > rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markthedeveloper at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 09:47:33 2012 From: markthedeveloper at gmail.com (Mark Burns) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 10:47:33 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Anyone else want adding to the github organisation? Message-ID: Hello all, It seems the more noise we make on this list the higher the probability of getting more done on it is. So in an effort to inspire more effort, I thought I'd send this email. We currently have the github accounts alexdowad, ejames, markburns and skra https://github.com/ruby-hacking-guide The latest head is updated from Jekyll and available to read on github pages: http://ruby-hacking-guide.github.com Do any of the following original contributors still follow this list/ want adding to the organisation? - Vincent Isambart - Meinrad Recheis - Laurent Sansonetti - Clifford Caoile - Jean-Denis Vauguet Aman Gupta a.k.a tmm1, I think I used some of your work from your repo, so although I didn't get a reply about the ruby-hacking-guide organisation. I'm going to be cheeky and add you, but obviously feel free to remove yourself if you're not happy about that decision. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robert at gravina.com Tue Jun 5 10:04:29 2012 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 19:04:29 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5 June 2012 18:37, Mark Burns wrote: > Hi Robert, didn't mean for that to sound critical. No problem, it didn't come across as such! I just wanted to point out that my translations weren't done in that way deliberately. Robert From alexinbeijing at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:10:41 2012 From: alexinbeijing at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:10:41 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > By the way, I'm completely new to translation so not at all clear on how > to orchestrate these > things. Perhaps it might be good to forge ahead with trying to get as much > as possible translated, > and think about unifying style later? > Or then again it might make sense to come up with overall guidelines, like > a coding style, > and try to stick to that as we go. > I say: 1. Translate all the Japanese text which has not been translated yet 2. Proofread all the chapters -- each chapter should be proofread by someone *different* from the translators of the chapter 3. If issues with accuracy/style are found during proofreading, post the specifics on this mailing list and hash them out through discussion. Let the majority rule on what the final translation will be. A -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From markthedeveloper at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:14:32 2012 From: markthedeveloper at gmail.com (Mark Burns) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:14:32 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'd agree with all of that except for one point - I think github commenting is a better forum for that kind of discussion. We can comment in place related to a specific translation. I've already raised an issue in that way here: https://github.com/ruby-hacking-guide/ruby-hacking-guide.github.com/commit/68cfe77968aeb995b1d6401ae3f2b6594d2860c2 On 5 June 2012 13:10, Alex wrote: > By the way, I'm completely new to translation so not at all clear on how >> to orchestrate these >> things. Perhaps it might be good to forge ahead with trying to get as >> much as possible translated, >> and think about unifying style later? >> Or then again it might make sense to come up with overall guidelines, >> like a coding style, >> and try to stick to that as we go. >> > > I say: > > 1. Translate all the Japanese text which has not been translated yet > 2. Proofread all the chapters -- each chapter should be proofread by > someone *different* from the translators of the chapter > 3. If issues with accuracy/style are found during proofreading, post the > specifics on this mailing list and hash them out through discussion. Let > the majority rule on what the final translation will be. > > A > > _______________________________________________ > rhg-discussion mailing list > rhg-discussion at rubyforge.org > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/rhg-discussion > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexinbeijing at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:17:30 2012 From: alexinbeijing at gmail.com (Alex) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2012 13:17:30 +0100 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Garbage collection chapter In-Reply-To: References: <4FCDC141.7090707@pantolog.de> <23BBAC6B-0A74-4C2C-8CF9-083534934823@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Mark Burns wrote: > I'd agree with all of that except for one point - > > I think github commenting is a better forum for that kind of discussion. > Excellent point. Thanks. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: