From robert at gravina.com Thu Aug 24 07:57:03 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 20:57:03 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] introduction Message-ID: <19057184-E492-41A2-B966-5850BE9BD068@gravina.com> Hello List, I'm a native English speaker and intermediate-level Japanese speaker, and at about the level where I could should start trying to read. The problem is, there wasn't really anything much I wanted to read - that is, until I came across the Ruby Hacking Guide! I'm probably not qualified to be translating this, since I'm totally new to Ruby and by no means a C guru. But, I'd really like to have a go at understanding how Ruby was implemented and improve my Japanese at the same time. A fluent friend tells me that text-book Japanese tends to use the same kinds of grammar patterns and vocabulary over and over, and from looking at the text it does look manageable. So the next logical step would be to translate Chapter 8? Anyone working on that? I wouldn't want to "take" the chapter if there's someone else with better Japanese wishing to work on it. At first glance it seems to cover details of the Ruby syntax without referring to the C implementation. To get a feel for the (poor) level of my Japanese, here's me attempting to translate the first paragraph: ?8? Ruby????? ??????????Ruby??????????? ??????????????????????? ??????????????????????? ???????????????Ruby?????? ??????????????????????? ????????????CD-ROM????????? ???????\footnote{Ruby?????????? ????CD-ROMarchives/ruby-refm.tar.gz}???????? ??? Ruby?????????????????????? Chapter 8: Ruby language details Up until this point we have not mentioned the details of Ruby syntax and how it is evaluated. In the introduction to this book we omitted much of the detail found in the language specification. However, it is not very likely that you could begin programming in Ruby from the description contained here alone. Since the entire specification is important, you should consult the Ruby Reference Manual contained on the CD that came with this book. Readers familiar with Ruby can safely skip this chapter. Two things I'm unsure about from this paragraph: 1) ?? means evaluation. Part 2 talks about syntax and semantics (evaluation) is the topic of Part 3. So I wonder why he's mentioning semantics here? Probably just to say he hasn't talked about it yet? 2) My translation saying that you couldn't possibly program in Ruby from the introductory chapter has to be wrong - Ruby is very easy to get started in!! I wonder what he's trying to say here? Also, this took me a long time to translate (maybe 30 mins!) so I'm probably ready to translate any of this book :( Anyway, great work so far people! I'm looking forward to getting suck into the first section of the book and the Ruby source! Robert From robert at gravina.com Thu Aug 24 08:00:57 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:00:57 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] introduction In-Reply-To: <19057184-E492-41A2-B966-5850BE9BD068@gravina.com> References: <19057184-E492-41A2-B966-5850BE9BD068@gravina.com> Message-ID: > Also, this took me a long time to translate (maybe 30 mins!) so I'm > probably ready to translate any of this book :( Oops! I meant say NOT ready :) Robert From vincent.isambart at gmail.com Thu Aug 24 08:30:54 2006 From: vincent.isambart at gmail.com (Vincent Isambart) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 14:30:54 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Current Status Message-ID: <7d9a1f530608240530u4b17e125xf334efd8eb146448@mail.gmail.com> Hello everyone, I would like everyone who is or was working on some translation of the RHG to say his current status. Even if you haven't done anything, I won't scold anyone ;), but at least say it. I'd like to know the current real status. If I have not forgotten any mail the ones currently working on a chapter are : - Clifford Caoile on chapter 7 - Emanuel Carnevale on chapter 5 - Chris Dawson on some chapter ?? - Paul Battley on chapter 19 And if you have some translation done, even if you have not finished your chapter, could you at least send them on the mailing list. I can also give you SVN access. Cheers, Vincent From lang at ms.chinmin.edu.tw Thu Aug 24 09:01:30 2006 From: lang at ms.chinmin.edu.tw (Dr Bean) Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 21:01:30 +0800 Subject: [rhg-discussion] introduction In-Reply-To: <19057184-E492-41A2-B966-5850BE9BD068@gravina.com> References: <19057184-E492-41A2-B966-5850BE9BD068@gravina.com> Message-ID: <20060824130130.GC22608@ms.chinmin.edu.tw> On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Robert Gravina wrote: > ?8? Ruby????? > ??????????Ruby??????????? > ??????????????????????? > ??????????????????????? > ???????????????Ruby?????? > ??????????????????????? > ????????????CD-ROM????????? > ???????\footnote{Ruby?????????? > ????CD-ROMarchives/ruby-refm.tar.gz}???????? > ??? > Ruby?????????????????????? > Chapter 8: Ruby language details > Up until this point we have not mentioned the details of Ruby syntax > and how it is evaluated. In the introduction to this book we omitted > much of the detail found in the language specification. However, it > is not very likely that you could begin programming in Ruby from the > description contained here alone. Since the entire specification is > important, you should consult the Ruby Reference Manual contained on > the CD that came with this book. I would have said, So it is not very likely that ..., rather than, However it is not very likely that .. I would have said, If completeness is necessary, ... rather than, Since the entire specification is important .. From robert at gravina.com Mon Aug 28 05:56:26 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 18:56:26 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Chapter 8? Message-ID: After talking with a Japanese friend about Chapter 8, it looks like it's less important than other chapters since it covers the Ruby grammar in some detail and doesn't refer to the C source. This could be learned elsewhere, and if I've translated it right Aoki says that readers familiar with Ruby can skip the chapter anyway. I suppose you know all this already but I thought I may as well mention it. The yacc primer in Chapter 9 could be skipped too. Chapter 8 - 10 cover the compiler front-end (at least the scanner, parser, syntax tree construction). I would expect scanner/parser implementation, being a lex/yacc implementation, not to be all that different from other language implementations except for any tricky Ruby grammar constructs. Anyhow, Chapter 12 would be the most useful chapter out of Part 2, in my opinion. I wonder if Chapter 12 can be grokked without reading the rest of part 2, assuming you read up on Ruby grammar elsewhere (if there is an elsewhere) and can understand yacc/ lex source files. Part 3 gets back in the action again by looking at the Ruby interpreter, which I suppose is meat and potatoes of the whole thing. So I suppose working on Part 3 and then coming back to Part 2 makes most sense, unless someone is itching to learn about the parser :). Like I said in my introductory mail, I'm not really qualified to translate this but I might have a go at Chapter 13. I am most interested to see how the semantics are played out and think I might be able to tackle it once I've gotten through what's been already translated for Part 1. BTW, I was wondering the other day if using a wiki for this translation project is a good or bad idea... Taking on a whole chapter is tough work, but if several people could collaborate on a chapter or others could easily modify/correct/translate small sections as the feel like it, the translation might attract more, "part-time" translators? I realise Subversion allows this also, but perhaps a wiki is good idea anyhow? Obviously, the different writing styles and Japanese/English proficiency levels would have to be smoothed over later. I hope noone minds me just jumping in here and making suggestions. I realise there is a core group of you who have put a great deal of effort in to get the most important chapters of Part 1 done, so I don't want to tread on anyones toes here. Also, I have a Japanese friend who I believe has read through most of the book. so anyone wants me to field him some questions let me know. Robert From robert at gravina.com Mon Aug 28 06:04:40 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 19:04:40 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Chapter 8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94D3B984-1EEB-4AE0-A507-EE54864FB4AB@gravina.com> > Chapter 8 - 10 > cover the compiler front-end (at least the scanner, parser, syntax > tree construction). Sorry I meant Chapter 10 -12 Robert From vincent.isambart at gmail.com Mon Aug 28 11:51:13 2006 From: vincent.isambart at gmail.com (Vincent Isambart) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 17:51:13 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Chapter 8? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d9a1f530608280851s13e818cft9f924acf2565d164@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > After talking with a Japanese friend about Chapter 8, it looks like > it's less important than other chapters since it covers the Ruby > grammar in some detail and doesn't refer to the C source. This could > be learned elsewhere, and if I've translated it right Aoki says that > readers familiar with Ruby can skip the chapter anyway. Indead it's not a chapter important to translate. That's why you can find in the SVN repository the beginning of the translation of chapter 9 but nothing of chapter 8. > The yacc primer in Chapter 9 could be skipped too. I just started to translate it to remind me some bit of yacc, but I do agree. > I wonder if Chapter 12 can be grokked > without reading the rest of part 2, assuming you read up on Ruby > grammar elsewhere (if there is an elsewhere) and can understand yacc/ > lex source files. Well I am not sure about the possibility to skip chapter 10 and 11. I have not checked but chapter 12 may rely a lot on what was seen in chapter 10 and 11. But as I said, it would need to at least quickly check chapter 12... And for an other place to read the grammar of Ruby, there is only the Ruby source code itself (parse.y). And also the grammar file from JRuby. But it is not explained anywhere else. There was a project to create a clean grammar using ANTLR, but it has seen no update lately. > So I suppose working on Part 3 and then coming back to Part 2 makes > most sense, unless someone is itching to learn about the parser :). Well I think chapter 12 is a MUST to be able to read part 3. It explains the node structure that is used a lot in the interpreter... > BTW, I was wondering the other day if using a wiki for this > translation project is a good or bad idea... Taking on a whole > chapter is tough work, but if several people could collaborate on a > chapter or others could easily modify/correct/translate small > sections as the feel like it, the translation might attract more, > "part-time" translators? I realise Subversion allows this also, but > perhaps a wiki is good idea anyhow? Obviously, the different writing > styles and Japanese/English proficiency levels would have to be > smoothed over later. Yes, I've already thought about that. I have also been contacted by Julian I. Kamil of the Ruby Bookshelf (http://books.rubyveil.com/) about using their system (Pandora) to translate. Here is a part of the mail I sent him. If you want I can forward you my full answer. I think anything I said for Pandora is also true for wikis (after all Pandora is some kind of specialized wiki system) : ---- begin extract ---- - I do not thing it's really a great tool for translation itself. It would need at least to be able to see the text in the original language and the current translation at the same time - I may be the only one with this problem, but I do not have any Internet access most of the time I'm working on the RHG (I'm uploading most of the time the files while I'm at work). Well it's not that big of a problem, I can still edit at home, and copy/paste the text in a browser. - The format used is mainly RedCloth but I added a few things (described there: http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/rhg-discussion/2006-March/000041.html). The most problematic is the backquote syntax: I think the @code between ats@ is too limited (no carriage return possible, can't put for example a 's' after code...). - I think editing text in a browser in quite bothersome (and I do not think I'm the only one to think that). We can still edit in an editor and paste it in Pandora, but if we do so I do not really see what would add Pandora. - If we choose Pandora, it may add restreints (like if we want like new markup, automatic scripts or anything else) we do not have in our current status. ---- end extract ---- But seeing that recently there is not much activity here, and in fact the only translations I've seen so far have been done by either Clifford or me. I've seen some people telling they would work on some translations, but I have not seen any result yet (if someone can prove me wrong, please do it). In fact the best would be to have something like a modified wiki (or pandora) tweaked for our needs (like being able to see the text in the original language, and some kind of autosave), but I really do not have time to work on something like that... > I hope noone minds me just jumping in here and making suggestions. I > realise there is a core group of you who have put a great deal of > effort in to get the most important chapters of Part 1 done, so I > don't want to tread on anyones toes here. Well I don't mind suggestions ;). Cheers, Vincent ISAMBART Ruby Hacking Guide translator - http://rhg.rubyforge.org/ From jd at typhon.org Mon Aug 28 15:48:10 2006 From: jd at typhon.org (Jean-Denis Vauguet) Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:48:10 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Current Status In-Reply-To: <7d9a1f530608240530u4b17e125xf334efd8eb146448@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d9a1f530608240530u4b17e125xf334efd8eb146448@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <44F3487A.5000704@typhon.org> Vincent Isambart a ?crit : > Hello everyone, > > I would like everyone who is or was working on some translation of the > RHG to say his current status. Plop/hi, I actually did not translate anything from English to French since several weeks, some things went askew at home (both network and private issues). But I'm not backing out and I will badger myself during the next days into commiting a brand-new chapter as soon as possible :) A question: are the breaklines necessary for the say, French translation? I have the feeling it doesn't fit with the "French typo". I mean, in japanese, it's pretty easy to break lines while keeping clean borders, but in French (in English too, in any roman language I guess), we have the "text-align: justify" propertie that cleans up things without any manual break. What do you think? -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 191 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature Url : http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/rhg-discussion/attachments/20060828/ef9d2aa2/attachment.bin From robert at gravina.com Mon Aug 28 16:39:01 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 05:39:01 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Chapter 8? In-Reply-To: <7d9a1f530608280851s13e818cft9f924acf2565d164@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d9a1f530608280851s13e818cft9f924acf2565d164@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5D282AFB-ABFB-45FB-B6BA-4B2AA514D8E5@gravina.com> > - I do not thing it's really a great tool for translation itself. It > would need at least to be able to see the text in the original > language and the current translation at the same time I just searched RubyForge, and found this. Unfortunately, the developer hasn't released any files yet, nor input anything in the bugtracker etc., so perhaps it's a dead project. http://rubyforge.org/projects/inctrans/ Robert From robert at gravina.com Tue Aug 29 02:14:07 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 15:14:07 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] translation style and Chapter 10 Message-ID: <45EF1114-AB64-4016-8F3F-FE40F6F5CA35@gravina.com> List, After reading through Vincent's comments, rather than going straight to chapter 12 or 13 I'll start translating chapter 10. I was wondering, do you tend to go for an accurate or fluent translation? I find that when I try to translate literally what Aoki says, using the equivalent nouns and verbs in English, it sounds a little odd. If I then smooth it over to make it sound more natural, although the meaning is similar to the original it's probably not a faithful translation - it's the result of me digesting the info then writing down what I think it all means. How do you all deal with this? Do you learn towards accuracy, or fluency? Here's my attempt at the first paragraph of chapter 10. The first attempt is more of a literal translation than the second. Original Japanese: ???????????parse.y????*.y???yacc ?????????parse.c??????? ?????lex.c???????????????? ?????????????????????? ?????gperf??????????????? ??????????????????????? ?????????keywords?? lex.c?parse.c?#include ??????????????????????? ????????????????? Literal translation: The main source file for the parser is parse.y. Passing *.y files as input to yacc will result in the creation of parse.c. Regarding other files, the filename lex.c suggests that this file contains the scanner, however this is not the case. This file is created by the gperf tool and defines the reserved word hashtable. The input file for this is keywords. lex.c is #included in parse.c. Regarding the contents, explanation is difficult right now so let?s return to this till later. Smoothed over translation: The main source file for the parser is parse.y. Yacc takes *.y files and produces a parser as output in parse.c. Although one would expect lex.c to contain the scanner this is not the case. This file is created by gperf, taking the file keywords as input, and defines the reserved word hashtable. This tool generated lex.c is #included in parse.c. The details of this is somewhat difficult to explain at this time, so we shall return to this later. Robert From vincent.isambart at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 03:44:03 2006 From: vincent.isambart at gmail.com (Vincent Isambart) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 09:44:03 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] translation style and Chapter 10 In-Reply-To: <45EF1114-AB64-4016-8F3F-FE40F6F5CA35@gravina.com> References: <45EF1114-AB64-4016-8F3F-FE40F6F5CA35@gravina.com> Message-ID: <7d9a1f530608290044i4be0f93q752c4b406ddbce48@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > I was wondering, do you tend to go for an accurate or fluent > translation? I find that when I try to translate literally what Aoki > says, using the equivalent nouns and verbs in English, it sounds a > little odd. If I then smooth it over to make it sound more natural, > although the meaning is similar to the original it's probably not a > faithful translation - it's the result of me digesting the info then > writing down what I think it all means. How do you all deal with > this? Do you learn towards accuracy, or fluency? Well I do the same : first translating literally, then I smooth it over. A translation too literal of Japanese is often way too painful to read. So go for fluency as long as you do not remove information. Cheers, Vincent From vincent.isambart at gmail.com Tue Aug 29 10:20:55 2006 From: vincent.isambart at gmail.com (Vincent Isambart) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 16:20:55 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Current Status In-Reply-To: <44F3487A.5000704@typhon.org> References: <7d9a1f530608240530u4b17e125xf334efd8eb146448@mail.gmail.com> <44F3487A.5000704@typhon.org> Message-ID: <7d9a1f530608290720g119c7480nd7be0f81b496923f@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > A question: are the breaklines necessary for the say, French > translation? I have the feeling it doesn't fit with the "French typo". I > mean, in japanese, it's pretty easy to break lines while keeping clean > borders, but in French (in English too, in any roman language I guess), > we have the "text-align: justify" propertie that cleans up things > without any manual break. What do you think? I do not completely get what you want but, I'll try to answer anyway. If you think we should replace "text-align: left" with "text-align: justify", well I'm not sure it would make the web page better. With justification, lines with long unsplittable words (like web addresses) look quite horrible. And most of web pages are left aligned after all. To have something that really looks better, a way to have a great result would be for example to have a script that generates LaTeX from Textile. Then you'll have justification, hyphenation in nice looking PDFs... And if by "manual break" you mean the carriage returns every few words in the text files, they are optional. I just use M-Q in Emacs because I find it easier to work with shorter lines... Cheers, Vincent From robert at gravina.com Tue Aug 29 11:48:03 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 00:48:03 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Moji Message-ID: <194E868F-FCB9-4ADD-BC39-EBBB5119A303@gravina.com> In case someone wasn't aware of it, I though I'd introduce the Firefox plugin Moji. It allows you to right-click a kanji or word in a Japanese web page and looks it up in an edict-based dictionary. It also deals with verb inflections, which is really nice. Vincent mentioned in a mail he'd like a tool that allowed him to edit the page next to the original - well, if you've got a huge screen like I do then that's easy enough to do by just placing your editor side by side with the browser :) When you've accumulated a nice list of vocabulary like I have in this screenshot you can export it to a file for later reference. http://moji.mozdev.org/ Anyway, I just thought I'd mention this to assist people who, when finding words they don't know, are trying to figure out the dictionary form then copy-pasting it to a dictionary, then maybe recording the definition somewhere. I'm really enjoying this translation - I'm learning a lot of Japanese words and grammar from it ;) Robert -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: rhg-moji-small.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 97012 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/rhg-discussion/attachments/20060830/a68248bb/attachment-0001.jpg From robert at gravina.com Tue Aug 29 12:21:49 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 01:21:49 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Moji In-Reply-To: <194E868F-FCB9-4ADD-BC39-EBBB5119A303@gravina.com> References: <194E868F-FCB9-4ADD-BC39-EBBB5119A303@gravina.com> Message-ID: I forgot to mention there is a Japanese-French dictionary for Moji too for those working on the French translation. Robert From robert at gravina.com Tue Aug 29 14:22:05 2006 From: robert at gravina.com (Robert Gravina) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:22:05 +0900 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Welcome to Chapter 10! Message-ID: <65CAA002-CA5E-4289-88F2-20C59E8378E2@gravina.com> I've only translated a very small part of Chapter 10, but I thought I might post it here so that you can get a feel for what the chapter is about, at least, without having to read the Japanese version :) I'm not sure if this will work as a patch since I've just patched it against my local workspace. I've never patched a SVN repository before (just used commit and update) ;) The main site mentions the mailing list is the preferred way to submit patches. This patch would include all the figures for the chapter too (only a few of the originals have Japanese text, so I've just converted them to PNG for the meantime). -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: rhg-ch10-patch.txt Url: http://rubyforge.org/pipermail/rhg-discussion/attachments/20060830/34a109db/attachment-0001.txt From vincent.isambart at gmail.com Wed Aug 30 03:11:00 2006 From: vincent.isambart at gmail.com (Vincent Isambart) Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2006 09:11:00 +0200 Subject: [rhg-discussion] Moji In-Reply-To: <194E868F-FCB9-4ADD-BC39-EBBB5119A303@gravina.com> References: <194E868F-FCB9-4ADD-BC39-EBBB5119A303@gravina.com> Message-ID: <7d9a1f530608300011q4301dc9fl12b6c143f1afbf9@mail.gmail.com> Hi, > In case someone wasn't aware of it, I though I'd introduce the > Firefox plugin Moji. Personally I prefer Rikaichan (http://www.polarcloud.com/rikaichan/) that has similar functions but does show everything bellow the mouse cursor instead of in a sidebar. Cheers, Vincent From lang at ms.chinmin.edu.tw Tue Aug 29 08:35:47 2006 From: lang at ms.chinmin.edu.tw (Dr Bean) Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2006 20:35:47 +0800 Subject: [rhg-discussion] translation tools Message-ID: <20060829123547.GG11849@ms.chinmin.edu.tw> Regarding translation tools, here is a Java tool which got some atttention at a Kansai perl translation meeting. http://kansai.pm.org/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?action=TRACKBACKLIST&page=%A5%A4%A5%D9%A5%F3%A5%C8%2F%C2%E81%B2%F3Perl%CB%DD%CC%F5%A5%D5%A5%A7%A5%B9%A5%BF%CA%F3%B9%F0 -- Dr Bean If I did not see further, it was because of the midgets standing on my shoulders, and the midgets who would not let me stand on their shoulders. --Dr Bean