From t_leitner at gmx.at  Tue Jun  8 09:55:47 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 15:55:47 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.8.0 released
Message-ID: <20100608155547.1de2e03e@noweto>

## About kramdown

kramdown (sic, not Kramdown or KramDown, just kramdown) is a *free*
GPL-licensed [Ruby](http://www.ruby-lang.org) library for parsing a
superset of Markdown. It is completely written in Ruby, supports
standard Markdown (with some minor modifications) and various
extensions that have been made popular by the [PHP Markdown Extra]
package and [Maruku].
Homepage for installation instructions and documentation:
    http://kramdown.rubyforge.org


## kramdown 0.8.0 released

One of the bigger changes in this release is the support for converting
HTML tags into native kramdown elements via the new `html_to_native`
option. For example, the HTML tag `p` is converted to the native
paragraph element instead of a generic HTML tag if this option is set
to `true`. This is especially useful for converters that don't handle
generic HTML tags (e.g. the LaTeX converter).

This conversion is a feature of the new standalone HTML parser which is
used by the kramdown parser for parsing HTML tags.

Also note that support for the old extension syntax and custom
extensions has been dropped as of this release! And the `filter_html`
option will be removed in the next release because there exist better
facilities for performing this kind of task!


## Changes

* Major changes:

  - New parser for parsing HTML documents
  - Added the option `html_to_native` (default: `false`) which tells
    the kramdown parser whether to convert HTML tags to native kramdown
    elements or to generic HTML elements.

* Minor changes:

  - Table header cells are now represented by their own element type
  - The element type `:html_text` is not used anymore - it is replaced
    by the general `:text` element
  - HTML comments are now converted to LaTeX comments when using the
    LaTeX converter
  - The LaTeX converter can now output the contents of HTML `<i>` and
    `<b>` tags

* Bug fixes:

  - Attributes that have been assigned to the to-be-replaced TOC list
    are now added correctly on the generated TOC list in the HTML
    converter
  - Fixed problem in typographic symbol processing where an entity
    string instead of an entity element was added
  - Fixed problem with HTML span parsing: some text was not added to
    the correct element when the end tag was not found
  - HTML `code` and `pre` tags are now parsed as raw HTML tags
  - HTML tags inside raw HTML span tags are now parsed correctly as raw
    HTML tags
  - The Rakefile can now be used even if the `rdoc` gem is missing
    (patch by Ben Armston)
  - Fixed generation of footnotes in the LaTeX converter (patch by Ben
    Armston)
  - Fixed LaTeX converter to support code spans/blocks in footnotes
  - HTML comments and XML processing instructions are now correctly
    parsed inside raw HTML tags
  - HTML script tags are now correctly parsed
  - Fixed the abbreviation conversion in the LaTeX converter
  - Empty image links are not output anymore by the LaTeX converter

* Deprecation notes:

  - The old extension syntax and support for custom extensions has been
    removed.
  - The `filter_html` option will be removed in the next release.

From johnmuhl at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 11:31:21 2010
From: johnmuhl at gmail.com (john muhl)
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2010 10:31:21 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
Message-ID: <AANLkTim1MnBf63aA4Z4fluWbVACp294u36x0vUQ1j5vb@mail.gmail.com>

is it possible to use kramdown in an xhtml document? or someway to say
you want numeric entities instead of named entities; e.g. `&#8220;`
instead of `&ldquo;`?

From elliot.winkler at gmail.com  Tue Jun  8 15:29:33 2010
From: elliot.winkler at gmail.com (Elliot Winkler)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 14:29:33 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTim1MnBf63aA4Z4fluWbVACp294u36x0vUQ1j5vb@mail.gmail.com>
References: <AANLkTim1MnBf63aA4Z4fluWbVACp294u36x0vUQ1j5vb@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com>

I'd like to be able to have this option too, actually. The specific use 
case for me is in generating an XML feed for my blog -- since XML only 
allows certain named entities, I'm basically forced to patch kramdown to 
use numeric entities instead of named ones. Actually, it might be easier 
just to always have kramdown use numerics... would you guys be opposed 
to that?

-- Elliot

On 6/8/10 10:31 AM, john muhl wrote:
> is it possible to use kramdown in an xhtml document? or someway to say
> you want numeric entities instead of named entities; e.g. `&#8220;`
> instead of `&ldquo;`?
> _______________________________________________
> kramdown-users mailing list
> kramdown-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/kramdown-users
>    

From matt at tidbits.com  Tue Jun  8 16:02:57 2010
From: matt at tidbits.com (Matt Neuburg)
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:02:57 -0700
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>

On or about 6/8/10 12:29 PM, thus spake "Elliot Winkler"
<elliot.winkler at gmail.com>:

> I'd like to be able to have this option too, actually. The specific use
> case for me is in generating an XML feed for my blog -- since XML only
> allows certain named entities, I'm basically forced to patch kramdown to
> use numeric entities instead of named ones. Actually, it might be easier
> just to always have kramdown use numerics... would you guys be opposed
> to that?
> 
> -- Elliot
> 
> On 6/8/10 10:31 AM, john muhl wrote:
>> is it possible to use kramdown in an xhtml document? or someway to say
>> you want numeric entities instead of named entities; e.g. `&#8220;`
>> instead of `&ldquo;`?

I agree that this option sounds desirable. I generally prefer numeric to
named entities.

Just to be clear, though, named entities are legal in XHTML. So this would
be purely an XML matter. Also, the usual approach in a feed is to enclose
everything that might be (X)HTML in <![CDATA[...]]> delimiters.

m.

-- 
matt neuburg, phd = matt at tidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/
pantes anthropoi tou eidenai oregontai phusei
Among the 2007 MacTech Top 25, http://tinyurl.com/2rh4pf
AppleScript: the Definitive Guide, 2nd edition
http://www.tidbits.com/matt/default.html#applescriptthings
Take Control of Exploring & Customizing Snow Leopard
http://tinyurl.com/kufyy8
RubyFrontier! http://www.apeth.com/RubyFrontierDocs/default.html
TidBITS, Mac news and reviews since 1990, http://www.tidbits.com




From t_leitner at gmx.at  Wed Jun  9 01:53:21 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 07:53:21 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com>
	<C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
Message-ID: <20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>

On 2010-06-08 13:02 -0700 Matt Neuburg wrote:

> > On 6/8/10 10:31 AM, john muhl wrote:
> >> is it possible to use kramdown in an xhtml document? or someway to
> >> say you want numeric entities instead of named entities; e.g.
> >> `&#8220;` instead of `&ldquo;`?
> 
> I agree that this option sounds desirable. I generally prefer numeric
> to named entities.
> 
> Just to be clear, though, named entities are legal in XHTML. So this
> would be purely an XML matter. Also, the usual approach in a feed is
> to enclose everything that might be (X)HTML in <![CDATA[...]]>
> delimiters.

Is there any advantage in using named entities besides being better
understandable? I don't have a preference regarding named or numeric
entities, so if numeric entities are preferred, I will modfiy the HTML
parser to emit numeric entities.

-- Thomas

From svicalifornia at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 04:52:30 2010
From: svicalifornia at gmail.com (Shawn Van Ittersum)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 18:52:30 +1000
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
Message-ID: <4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>

I prefer named entities for readability. Could there be an option to  
choose?

Shawn
[sent from mobile phone]

On Jun 9, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at> wrote:

> On 2010-06-08 13:02 -0700 Matt Neuburg wrote:
>
>>> On 6/8/10 10:31 AM, john muhl wrote:
>>>> is it possible to use kramdown in an xhtml document? or someway to
>>>> say you want numeric entities instead of named entities; e.g.
>>>> `&#8220;` instead of `&ldquo;`?
>>
>> I agree that this option sounds desirable. I generally prefer numeric
>> to named entities.
>>
>> Just to be clear, though, named entities are legal in XHTML. So this
>> would be purely an XML matter. Also, the usual approach in a feed is
>> to enclose everything that might be (X)HTML in <![CDATA[...]]>
>> delimiters.
>
> Is there any advantage in using named entities besides being better
> understandable? I don't have a preference regarding named or numeric
> entities, so if numeric entities are preferred, I will modfiy the HTML
> parser to emit numeric entities.
>
> -- Thomas
> _______________________________________________
> kramdown-users mailing list
> kramdown-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/kramdown-users

From johnmuhl at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 15:07:20 2010
From: johnmuhl at gmail.com (john muhl)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 14:07:20 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com> 
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimwzzWkpmm2b6o0M3eMx4FF0-rwT2Z94Pg8A-Bg@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 3:52 AM, Shawn Van Ittersum
<svicalifornia at gmail.com> wrote:
> I prefer named entities for readability. Could there be an option to choose?

i don't think the readability argument is very strong in this case. of
course if you're composing html by hand then named entities are
preferable but when it's output by an application from markdown input
then it doesn't matter to me what comes out the end.

p.s. markdown/smartypants.pl outputs numeric entities; probably for
the same reason.

> On Jun 9, 2010, at 3:53 PM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at> wrote:
>
>> On 2010-06-08 13:02 -0700 Matt Neuburg wrote:
>>
>>>> On 6/8/10 10:31 AM, john muhl wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> is it possible to use kramdown in an xhtml document? or someway to
>>>>> say you want numeric entities instead of named entities; e.g.
>>>>> `&#8220;` instead of `&ldquo;`?
>>>
>>> I agree that this option sounds desirable. I generally prefer numeric
>>> to named entities.
>>>
>>> Just to be clear, though, named entities are legal in XHTML. So this
>>> would be purely an XML matter. Also, the usual approach in a feed is
>>> to enclose everything that might be (X)HTML in <![CDATA[...]]>
>>> delimiters.
>>
>> Is there any advantage in using named entities besides being better
>> understandable? I don't have a preference regarding named or numeric
>> entities, so if numeric entities are preferred, I will modfiy the HTML
>> parser to emit numeric entities.
>>
>> -- Thomas
>> _______________________________________________
>> kramdown-users mailing list
>> kramdown-users at rubyforge.org
>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/kramdown-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> kramdown-users mailing list
> kramdown-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/kramdown-users
>

From matt at tidbits.com  Wed Jun  9 15:46:29 2010
From: matt at tidbits.com (Matt Neuburg)
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2010 12:46:29 -0700
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimwzzWkpmm2b6o0M3eMx4FF0-rwT2Z94Pg8A-Bg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimwzzWkpmm2b6o0M3eMx4FF0-rwT2Z94Pg8A-Bg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1EFAD572-9275-49BA-8D27-3F6C3697707C@tidbits.com>


On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:07 PM, john muhl wrote:

> i don't think the readability argument is very strong in this case. of
> course if you're composing html by hand then named entities are
> preferable but when it's output by an application from markdown input
> then it doesn't matter to me what comes out the end.
> 
> p.s. markdown/smartypants.pl outputs numeric entities; probably for
> the same reason.

The main reason numeric entities are preferable is that they are easier to generate and they exist for every character. You just put &#xxx; where xxx is the numeric value of the character. What is the named entity for &#9744; (a "ballot box")? There isn't one.

I think what I'd really like is the option for actual *characters* to be output. Only two characters must be entityized: ampersand and less-than. But that's all. I'm making UTF-8 encoded Web pages and I'm starting with UTF-8 encoded Markdown / kramdown, so all the characters I'm using are legal as they stand. I don't need them transformed at all. I type my own em-dashes, ellipses, Ancient Greek, etc. The only things I'm not typing myself are the curly quotes and curly apostrophe. I think Smartypants produces entities for its curly quotes etc. only because it doesn't know what encoding I'll be using. But I do know! :) So I'd be happiest if kramdown's Smartypants function allowed me to specify that I just want characters for any transformations it produces. Then I'd be able to read my own XHTML.

On the other hand if I were producing output for a non-UTF-8 milieu then everything that isn't ASCII must be entityized. In that case, only numeric entities make sense, because there are no named entities for most of the characters I use. m.

From svicalifornia at gmail.com  Wed Jun  9 16:46:18 2010
From: svicalifornia at gmail.com (Shawn Van Ittersum)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 06:46:18 +1000
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <1EFAD572-9275-49BA-8D27-3F6C3697707C@tidbits.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimwzzWkpmm2b6o0M3eMx4FF0-rwT2Z94Pg8A-Bg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1EFAD572-9275-49BA-8D27-3F6C3697707C@tidbits.com>
Message-ID: <30D09B8B-A32E-4F48-A6E8-8A1CF696E40B@gmail.com>

Obviously a system using named entities should fall back to numeric  
entities when the named entity for some character doesn't exist.

Shawn
[sent from mobile phone]

On Jun 10, 2010, at 5:46 AM, Matt Neuburg <matt at tidbits.com> wrote:

>
> On Jun 9, 2010, at 12:07 PM, john muhl wrote:
>
>> i don't think the readability argument is very strong in this case.  
>> of
>> course if you're composing html by hand then named entities are
>> preferable but when it's output by an application from markdown input
>> then it doesn't matter to me what comes out the end.
>>
>> p.s. markdown/smartypants.pl outputs numeric entities; probably for
>> the same reason.
>
> The main reason numeric entities are preferable is that they are  
> easier to generate and they exist for every character. You just put  
> &#xxx; where xxx is the numeric value of the character. What is the  
> named entity for &#9744; (a "ballot box")? There isn't one.
>
> I think what I'd really like is the option for actual *characters*  
> to be output. Only two characters must be entityized: ampersand and  
> less-than. But that's all. I'm making UTF-8 encoded Web pages and  
> I'm starting with UTF-8 encoded Markdown / kramdown, so all the  
> characters I'm using are legal as they stand. I don't need them  
> transformed at all. I type my own em-dashes, ellipses, Ancient  
> Greek, etc. The only things I'm not typing myself are the curly  
> quotes and curly apostrophe. I think Smartypants produces entities  
> for its curly quotes etc. only because it doesn't know what encoding  
> I'll be using. But I do know! :) So I'd be happiest if kramdown's  
> Smartypants function allowed me to specify that I just want  
> characters for any transformations it produces. Then I'd be able to  
> read my own XHTML.
>
> On the other hand if I were producing output for a non-UTF-8 milieu  
> then everything that isn't ASCII must be entityized. In that case,  
> only numeric entities make sense, because there are no named  
> entities for most of the characters I use. m.
> _______________________________________________
> kramdown-users mailing list
> kramdown-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/kramdown-users

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Thu Jun 10 01:21:18 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 07:21:18 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>

On 2010-06-09 18:52 +1000 Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:

> I prefer named entities for readability. Could there be an option to  
> choose?

I have now added an option named `numeric_values` that defaults to
`false` and can be used to decide whether entities are output using
their name or their numeric value.

-- Thomas

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Thu Jun 10 09:15:38 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 15:15:38 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <1EFAD572-9275-49BA-8D27-3F6C3697707C@tidbits.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
	<AANLkTimwzzWkpmm2b6o0M3eMx4FF0-rwT2Z94Pg8A-Bg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1EFAD572-9275-49BA-8D27-3F6C3697707C@tidbits.com>
Message-ID: <20100610151538.4c106a21@noweto>

> I think what I'd really like is the option for actual *characters* to
> be output. Only two characters must be entityized: ampersand and
> less-than. But that's all. I'm making UTF-8 encoded Web pages and I'm
> starting with UTF-8 encoded Markdown / kramdown, so all the
> characters I'm using are legal as they stand. I don't need them
> transformed at all. I type my own em-dashes, ellipses, Ancient Greek,
> etc. The only things I'm not typing myself are the curly quotes and
> curly apostrophe. I think Smartypants produces entities for its curly
> quotes etc. only because it doesn't know what encoding I'll be using.
> But I do know! :) So I'd be happiest if kramdown's Smartypants
> function allowed me to specify that I just want characters for any
> transformations it produces. Then I'd be able to read my own XHTML.

I won't implement this on Ruby 1.8 because of the lack of string
encoding support. However, the feature you want is already on my TODO
list. It will convert entities, smart quotes and typographic symbols
(as handled by the kramdown parser) into their character equivalences
on output - but only under Ruby 1.9. One more incentive to switch from
1.8 to 1.9 ;-)
 
> On the other hand if I were producing output for a non-UTF-8 milieu
> then everything that isn't ASCII must be entityized. In that case,
> only numeric entities make sense, because there are no named entities
> for most of the characters I use. m.

This won't be done in kramdown. The kramdown parser (as well as the new
HTML parser) doesn't convert between encodings or change normal
characters to entities. Whatever string you give to kramdown comes out
in the same encoding.

-- Thomas

From johnmuhl at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 10:00:10 2010
From: johnmuhl at gmail.com (john muhl)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:00:10 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com> 
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com> 
	<20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>
Message-ID: <AANLkTimiIf3l4SMduIgT7T_blg1dSQwgXjnay3p7KF-K@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at> wrote:
> On 2010-06-09 18:52 +1000 Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:
>
>> I prefer named entities for readability. Could there be an option to
>> choose?
>
> I have now added an option named `numeric_values` that defaults to
> `false` and can be used to decide whether entities are output using
> their name or their numeric value.

thanks a lot.

From matt at tidbits.com  Thu Jun 10 12:15:12 2010
From: matt at tidbits.com (Matt Neuburg)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:15:12 -0700
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100610151538.4c106a21@noweto>
Message-ID: <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>

On or about 6/10/10 6:15 AM, thus spake "Thomas Leitner" <t_leitner at gmx.at>:

>> I think what I'd really like is the option for actual *characters* to
>> be output. Only two characters must be entityized: ampersand and
>> less-than. But that's all. I'm making UTF-8 encoded Web pages and I'm
>> starting with UTF-8 encoded Markdown / kramdown, so all the
>> characters I'm using are legal as they stand. I don't need them
>> transformed at all. I type my own em-dashes, ellipses, Ancient Greek,
>> etc. The only things I'm not typing myself are the curly quotes and
>> curly apostrophe. I think Smartypants produces entities for its curly
>> quotes etc. only because it doesn't know what encoding I'll be using.
>> But I do know! :) So I'd be happiest if kramdown's Smartypants
>> function allowed me to specify that I just want characters for any
>> transformations it produces. Then I'd be able to read my own XHTML.
> 
> I won't implement this on Ruby 1.8 because of the lack of string
> encoding support. However, the feature you want is already on my TODO
> list. It will convert entities, smart quotes and typographic symbols
> (as handled by the kramdown parser) into their character equivalences
> on output - but only under Ruby 1.9. One more incentive to switch from
> 1.8 to 1.9 ;-)

Ouch! :) So I take it that iconv doesn't count as string encoding support?
Oh, wait - you mean that you can't count on kramdown *itself* (i.e. literal
strings in the kramdown file) being interpreted properly with respect to
encoding. TextMate will interpret Ruby files as UTF-8; that's what I use, so
I'm used to that, and I rely on the assumption that that's what I *will*
use. But someone might run kramdown in some other milieu. I never thought of
that. :)))

>  
>> On the other hand if I were producing output for a non-UTF-8 milieu
>> then everything that isn't ASCII must be entityized. In that case,
>> only numeric entities make sense, because there are no named entities
>> for most of the characters I use. m.
> 
> This won't be done in kramdown. The kramdown parser (as well as the new
> HTML parser) doesn't convert between encodings or change normal
> characters to entities. Whatever string you give to kramdown comes out
> in the same encoding.

Sounds great. m.

-- 
matt neuburg, phd = matt at tidbits.com, http://www.tidbits.com/matt/
pantes anthropoi tou eidenai oregontai phusei
Among the 2007 MacTech Top 25, http://tinyurl.com/2rh4pf
AppleScript: the Definitive Guide, 2nd edition
http://www.tidbits.com/matt/default.html#applescriptthings
Take Control of Exploring & Customizing Snow Leopard
http://tinyurl.com/kufyy8
RubyFrontier! http://www.apeth.com/RubyFrontierDocs/default.html
TidBITS, Mac news and reviews since 1990, http://www.tidbits.com




From svicalifornia at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 15:29:30 2010
From: svicalifornia at gmail.com (Shawn Van Ittersum)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 05:29:30 +1000
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
References: <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
Message-ID: <20100611052930199819.11fd2bf8@gmail.com>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:15:12 -0700, Matt Neuburg wrote:
> Ouch! :) So I take it that iconv doesn't count as string encoding support?
> Oh, wait - you mean that you can't count on kramdown *itself* (i.e. literal
> strings in the kramdown file) being interpreted properly with respect to
> encoding. TextMate will interpret Ruby files as UTF-8; that's what I use, so
> I'm used to that, and I rely on the assumption that that's what I *will*
> use. But someone might run kramdown in some other milieu. I never thought of
> that. :)))

TextMate's handling of text allows you to save UTF data, but Ruby 1.8 is not aware of UTF or any other encodings.  Ruby 1.8 can still use the data, but as strings of bytes, not UTF characters.  Operations on UTF strings may return strange results because Ruby 1.8 doesn't know how to handle UTF properly.  See this for more info:

http://blog.grayproductions.net/articles/bytes_and_characters_in_ruby_18

Shawn

From matt at tidbits.com  Thu Jun 10 16:17:11 2010
From: matt at tidbits.com (Matt Neuburg)
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:17:11 -0700
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100611052930199819.11fd2bf8@gmail.com>
References: <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100611052930199819.11fd2bf8@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8A1A03B5-3306-4A27-A003-B4E3BB009E2A@tidbits.com>


On Jun 10, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:

> TextMate's handling of text allows you to save UTF data, but Ruby 1.8 is not aware of UTF or any other encodings.  Ruby 1.8 can still use the data, but as strings of bytes, not UTF characters.  Operations on UTF strings may return strange results because Ruby 1.8 doesn't know how to handle UTF properly.  See this for more info:
> 
> http://blog.grayproductions.net/articles/bytes_and_characters_in_ruby_18
> 
> Shawn

Sure, but if you already know the encoding there's no problem. Believe me, I've written LOTS of code that manipulates / generates UTF-8 files in Ruby 1.8. I know plenty about this. m.
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From svicalifornia at gmail.com  Thu Jun 10 16:20:05 2010
From: svicalifornia at gmail.com (Shawn Van Ittersum)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 06:20:05 +1000
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <8A1A03B5-3306-4A27-A003-B4E3BB009E2A@tidbits.com>
References: <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100611052930199819.11fd2bf8@gmail.com>
	<8A1A03B5-3306-4A27-A003-B4E3BB009E2A@tidbits.com>
Message-ID: <20100611062005197039.bda5ea52@gmail.com>

OK. :)

Shawn

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 13:17:11 -0700, Matt Neuburg wrote:
> 
> On Jun 10, 2010, at 12:29 PM, Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:
>> TextMate's handling of text allows you to save UTF data, but Ruby 
>> 1.8 is not aware of UTF or any other encodings.  Ruby 1.8 can still 
>> use the data, but as strings of bytes, not UTF characters.  
>> Operations on UTF strings may return strange results because Ruby 
>> 1.8 doesn't know how to handle UTF properly.  See this for more info:
>> 
>> http://blog.grayproductions.net/articles/bytes_and_characters_in_ruby_18
>> 
>> Shawn
> 
> Sure, but if you already know the encoding there's no problem. 
> Believe me, I've written LOTS of code that manipulates / generates 
> UTF-8 files in Ruby 1.8. I know plenty about this. m.
> 
> _______________________________________________
> kramdown-users mailing list
> kramdown-users at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/kramdown-users

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Fri Jun 11 01:55:31 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 07:55:31 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
References: <20100610151538.4c106a21@noweto> <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
Message-ID: <20100611075531.107e1b65@noweto>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:15:12 -0700
Matt Neuburg <matt at tidbits.com> wrote:
> > I won't implement this on Ruby 1.8 because of the lack of string
> > encoding support. However, the feature you want is already on my
> > TODO list. It will convert entities, smart quotes and typographic
> > symbols (as handled by the kramdown parser) into their character
> > equivalences on output - but only under Ruby 1.9. One more
> > incentive to switch from 1.8 to 1.9 ;-)
> 
> Ouch! :) So I take it that iconv doesn't count as string encoding
> support? Oh, wait - you mean that you can't count on kramdown
> *itself* (i.e. literal strings in the kramdown file) being
> interpreted properly with respect to encoding. TextMate will
> interpret Ruby files as UTF-8; that's what I use, so I'm used to
> that, and I rely on the assumption that that's what I *will* use. But
> someone might run kramdown in some other milieu. I never thought of
> that. :)))

As far as I know iconv can only transcode strings from one encoding to
another, given you know the *source* encoding. But this source encoding
is not known in Ruby 1.8.

I had several choices regarding encodings:

* UTF-8 only: UTF-8 is supported by Ruby 1.8 and Ruby 1.9 with the
  difference that in Ruby 1.8 one has to assume that the input is UTF-8
  and in Ruby 1.9 one knows whether the input is in UTF-8. However, I
  felt that this would limit the usefulness of kramdown to much,
  especially in Asia.

* Supporting meta data and an encoding attribute: I once considered
  this but I though that the last approach was still more useful.

* Just using whatever the user gives to kramdown and outputting it in
  the same encoding. This is by far the easiest way, in Ruby 1.8 and
  1.9. The only difference between 1.8 and 1.9 is that in 1.9 kramdown
  knows the encoding whereas in 1.8 kramdown can only assume that the
  string is ASCII compatible.

  So basically the user needs to make sure that the string is in the
  correct encoding before it is given to kramdown.

Regarding kramdown itself: all source files have the "encoding: utf-8"
tag for compatibility with Ruby 1.9 and all strings should be ASCII
compatible.

Last but not least: multiple encoding support is currently not really
tested... however, nobody filed a bug so I presume that it works
correctly :-)

-- Thomas

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Fri Jun 11 03:58:13 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 09:58:13 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTimiIf3l4SMduIgT7T_blg1dSQwgXjnay3p7KF-K@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
	<20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>
	<AANLkTimiIf3l4SMduIgT7T_blg1dSQwgXjnay3p7KF-K@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100611095813.14000e30@noweto>

On Thu, 10 Jun 2010 09:00:10 -0500
john muhl <johnmuhl at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 10, 2010 at 12:21 AM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at>
> wrote:
> > On 2010-06-09 18:52 +1000 Shawn Van Ittersum wrote:
> >
> >> I prefer named entities for readability. Could there be an option
> >> to choose?
> >
> > I have now added an option named `numeric_values` that defaults to
> > `false` and can be used to decide whether entities are output using
> > their name or their numeric value.

I have pushed the latest changes to the github repo for your
consumption/consideration :-)

The changes include the new `numeric_values` option as well as the
conversion of entities to characters under Ruby 1.9 (only done in the
HTML converter).

-- Thomas

From elliot.winkler at gmail.com  Fri Jun 11 09:39:23 2010
From: elliot.winkler at gmail.com (Elliot Winkler)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:39:23 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100611075531.107e1b65@noweto>
References: <20100610151538.4c106a21@noweto> <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100611075531.107e1b65@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C123C8B.1000409@gmail.com>

On 6/11/10 12:55 AM, Thomas Leitner wrote:
> * Just using whatever the user gives to kramdown and outputting it in
>    the same encoding. This is by far the easiest way, in Ruby 1.8 and
>    1.9. The only difference between 1.8 and 1.9 is that in 1.9 kramdown
>    knows the encoding whereas in 1.8 kramdown can only assume that the
>    string is ASCII compatible.
>
>    So basically the user needs to make sure that the string is in the
>    correct encoding before it is given to kramdown.

If there were a "keep your hands off my special characters" option in 
addition to the numeric entities option, that's how I'd think it should 
work. Is there a case in which kramdown needs to convert the source text 
into another encoding?

-- Elliot

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Fri Jun 11 12:22:24 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2010 18:22:24 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <4C123C8B.1000409@gmail.com>
References: <20100610151538.4c106a21@noweto> <C8365DA0.53B97%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100611075531.107e1b65@noweto> <4C123C8B.1000409@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100611182224.1739d4a5@noweto>

On Fri, 11 Jun 2010 08:39:23 -0500
Elliot Winkler <elliot.winkler at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 6/11/10 12:55 AM, Thomas Leitner wrote:
> > * Just using whatever the user gives to kramdown and outputting it
> > in the same encoding. This is by far the easiest way, in Ruby 1.8
> > and 1.9. The only difference between 1.8 and 1.9 is that in 1.9
> > kramdown knows the encoding whereas in 1.8 kramdown can only assume
> > that the string is ASCII compatible.
> >
> >    So basically the user needs to make sure that the string is in
> > the correct encoding before it is given to kramdown.
> 
> If there were a "keep your hands off my special characters" option in 
> addition to the numeric entities option, that's how I'd think it
> should work. Is there a case in which kramdown needs to convert the
> source text into another encoding?

As explained in a previous email on this thread, kramdown doesn't
transcode the source text - it just takes it as it is.

On Ruby 1.8 this means that kramdown assumes that the source text is
ASCII compatible sothat the literal strings and regexps kramdown
internally uses can be correctly applied.

The situation when running kramdown under Ruby 1.9 is the same as with
Ruby 1.8 except that kramdown *knows* the source encoding and can thus
convert entities to characters if possible.

So kramdown should already be keeping its hands off any special
character! If not, please file a bug report with a test case! Or did
you mean something else with "keep your hands..."?

-- Thomas

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Sat Jun 12 15:28:29 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:28:29 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] IAL quotes for LaTex?
Message-ID: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at>

Would this feature make sense?

Source:

     {: .smallquote }
     > ghi
     >
     > jkl

LaTex output:

     \begin{smallquote}
     ghi

     jkl
     \end{smallquote}

A user could then define the "smallquote" LaTex environment with:

     \newenvironment{smallquote}{\begin{quote}\small}{\end{quote}}

Michael

From johnmuhl at gmail.com  Sat Jun 12 15:51:45 2010
From: johnmuhl at gmail.com (john muhl)
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:51:45 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100611095813.14000e30@noweto>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com> 
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com> 
	<20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>
	<AANLkTimiIf3l4SMduIgT7T_blg1dSQwgXjnay3p7KF-K@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100611095813.14000e30@noweto>
Message-ID: <AANLkTikSn-qN_N_OBNy6yt0AtE2nyP-QbfpRjzxqPmzu@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at> wrote:
> I have pushed the latest changes to the github repo for your
> consumption/consideration :-)
>
> The changes include the new `numeric_values` option as well as the
> conversion of entities to characters under Ruby 1.9 (only done in the
> HTML converter).

i think `rsquo` (e.g. in `it's`) is still slipping through as a named
entity with `numeric_entities` set to true.

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Sun Jun 13 02:10:25 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:10:25 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <AANLkTikSn-qN_N_OBNy6yt0AtE2nyP-QbfpRjzxqPmzu@mail.gmail.com>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com>
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com>
	<20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>
	<AANLkTimiIf3l4SMduIgT7T_blg1dSQwgXjnay3p7KF-K@mail.gmail.com>
	<20100611095813.14000e30@noweto>
	<AANLkTikSn-qN_N_OBNy6yt0AtE2nyP-QbfpRjzxqPmzu@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20100613081025.3fb5b6a2@noweto>

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 14:51:45 -0500
john muhl <johnmuhl at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 11, 2010 at 2:58 AM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at>
> wrote:
> > I have pushed the latest changes to the github repo for your
> > consumption/consideration :-)
> >
> > The changes include the new `numeric_values` option as well as the
> > conversion of entities to characters under Ruby 1.9 (only done in
> > the HTML converter).
> 
> i think `rsquo` (e.g. in `it's`) is still slipping through as a named
> entity with `numeric_entities` set to true.

It's working fine on my end (on the latest commit pushed to github):

    $ ruby -Ilib bin/kramdown --no-numeric_entities
    It's^D
    <p>It&rsquo;s</p>
    $ ruby -Ilib bin/kramdown --numeric_entities
    It's
    <p>It&#8217;s</p>

Do you have a special test case where this happens?

-- Thomas

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Sun Jun 13 02:29:18 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:29:18 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] IAL quotes for LaTex?
In-Reply-To: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>

On 2010-06-12 21:28 +0200 Michael Franzl wrote:
> Would this feature make sense?
> 
> Source:
> 
>      {: .smallquote }
>      > ghi
>      >
>      > jkl
> 
> LaTex output:
> 
>      \begin{smallquote}
>      ghi
> 
>      jkl
>      \end{smallquote}
> 
> A user could then define the "smallquote" LaTex environment with:
> 
>      \newenvironment{smallquote}{\begin{quote}\small}{\end{quote}}

Interesting idea. So basically you want the blockquote enviornment be
substituted by another environment based on a class attribute. What if
two classes are set on the blockquote:

    {: .quote1 .quote2}
    > Some quote

Which one should be used? Or should both be used, in the order they are
defined?

We would probably also have to define a list of possible custom latex
"blockquote" environment names so that this feature cannot accidentally
be invoked...

So, how about this:

* New option "quote_envs" for LaTeX converter, which is an array of
  allowed environment names, defaults to `[]` (i.e. empty array)

* If a blockquote does not have a class attribute, just handle it like
  it is currently done. Otherwise extract the class names in order and
  do the following for each class name: If the class name is contained
  in the "quote_envs" array, wrap the block quote contents in a thus
  named environment, otherwise do nothing.

-- Thomas

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Sun Jun 13 02:59:31 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 08:59:31 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] IAL quotes for LaTex?
In-Reply-To: <20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at> <20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at>

Thomas Leitner wrote:
> What if
> two classes are set on the blockquote:
> 
>     {: .quote1 .quote2}
>     > Some quote
> 
> Which one should be used? Or should both be used, in the order they are
> defined?

I think that several classes would work also. Example:

     {: .small .bold }
     > Some Quote

would be output to:

     \begin{small}
     \begin{bold}
     Some Quote
     \end{bold}
     \end{small}

But if that is too complicated, only the first class attribute could 
be used.

> So, how about this:
> 
> * New option "quote_envs" for LaTeX converter, which is an array of
>   allowed environment names, defaults to `[]` (i.e. empty array)
> 
> * If a blockquote does not have a class attribute, just handle it like
>   it is currently done. Otherwise extract the class names in order and
>   do the following for each class name: If the class name is contained
>   in the "quote_envs" array, wrap the block quote contents in a thus
>   named environment, otherwise do nothing.

Sounds very reasonable!

Michael

From johnmuhl at gmail.com  Sun Jun 13 10:18:57 2010
From: johnmuhl at gmail.com (john muhl)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 09:18:57 -0500
Subject: [kramdown-users] using kramdown in xhtml
In-Reply-To: <20100613081025.3fb5b6a2@noweto>
References: <4C0E9A1D.5070902@gmail.com> <C833F001.53AD8%matt@tidbits.com> 
	<20100609075321.203e6740@noweto>
	<4FB0682E-1B52-4567-A72E-5E14A3E8F4CB@gmail.com> 
	<20100610072118.4b332336@noweto>
	<AANLkTimiIf3l4SMduIgT7T_blg1dSQwgXjnay3p7KF-K@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100611095813.14000e30@noweto>
	<AANLkTikSn-qN_N_OBNy6yt0AtE2nyP-QbfpRjzxqPmzu@mail.gmail.com> 
	<20100613081025.3fb5b6a2@noweto>
Message-ID: <AANLkTinf1zZkWtk-4jJgKKQaiz-2bKzCiJ9gK4wcJQ_c@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jun 13, 2010 at 1:10 AM, Thomas Leitner <t_leitner at gmx.at> wrote:
> It's working fine on my end (on the latest commit pushed to github):

right. it was a typo...apparently i have a hard time typing numeric_entities :)

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Sun Jun 13 14:11:21 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Sun, 13 Jun 2010 20:11:21 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] RFC - using classes to change the blockquote
 environment
In-Reply-To: <4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at> <20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>
	<4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <20100613201121.7e340def@noweto>

> > So, how about this:
> > 
> > * New option "quote_envs" for LaTeX converter, which is an array of
> >   allowed environment names, defaults to `[]` (i.e. empty array)
> > 
> > * If a blockquote does not have a class attribute, just handle it
> > like it is currently done. Otherwise extract the class names in
> > order and do the following for each class name: If the class name
> > is contained in the "quote_envs" array, wrap the block quote
> > contents in a thus named environment, otherwise do nothing.
> 
> Sounds very reasonable!

Okay, then I will implement this in the next days if no one sees any
problems with this approach.

One more thing: *if* we do it like described above, it is not easily
changable in a future version without breaking compatibility. So my
last question: Could there be any other useful applications of the
classes of a blockquote in the LaTeX converter? Note that the
blockquote is currently the only block level element that can easily
contain any other block level elements... (list items could probably
also be used for such a purpose).

-- Thomas

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Mon Jun 14 04:22:01 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 10:22:01 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] RFC - using classes to change the blockquote
 environment
In-Reply-To: <20100613201121.7e340def@noweto>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at>
	<20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>	<4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at>
	<20100613201121.7e340def@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C15E6A9.7070004@gmx.at>

Thomas Leitner wrote:
> Okay, then I will implement this in the next days if no one sees any
> problems with this approach.
> 
> One more thing: *if* we do it like described above, it is not easily
> changable in a future version without breaking compatibility. So my
> last question: Could there be any other useful applications of the
> classes of a blockquote in the LaTeX converter? Note that the
> blockquote is currently the only block level element that can easily
> contain any other block level elements... (list items could probably
> also be used for such a purpose).

The downside of my suggestion is, that users *must* define the new 
LaTeX environment, otherwise the file won't compile out of the box. It 
would require some knowledge.

And if the compatibility issue is too risky, there is another 
possibility. Just add comments into the LaTeX output. The comments 
could later be changed with optional, custom regexp processing. Example:

     {: .smallquote }
     > Some Quote

will be converted to

     \begin{quote}  % .smallquote
     Some Quote
     \end{quote} % .smallquote

and a custom regexp conversion (optional) would be simple:

     \begin{smallquote}
     Some Quote
     \end{smallquote}

Michael

BTW, is it also possible to convert kramdown {::comments} to LaTeX 
comments?

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Mon Jun 14 14:13:19 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2010 20:13:19 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] RFC - using classes to change the blockquote
 environment
In-Reply-To: <4C15E6A9.7070004@gmx.at>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at> <20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>
	<4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at> <20100613201121.7e340def@noweto>
	<4C15E6A9.7070004@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <20100614201319.1ca816de@noweto>

> And if the compatibility issue is too risky, there is another 
> possibility. Just add comments into the LaTeX output. The comments 
> could later be changed with optional, custom regexp processing.
> Example:
> 
>      {: .smallquote }
>      > Some Quote
> 
> will be converted to
> 
>      \begin{quote}  % .smallquote
>      Some Quote
>      \end{quote} % .smallquote
> 
> and a custom regexp conversion (optional) would be simple:
> 
>      \begin{smallquote}
>      Some Quote
>      \end{smallquote}
> 

Hmm... this looks good! We wouldn't need another option and the user
could decide what he wants to do with the attributes set on a
blockquote. This could probably be generalized to other block level
elements.

If you don't mind writing a post-processor for your case I would
actually like to use this approach since it seems to be even more
general! Thanks for the great idea!!

> BTW, is it also possible to convert kramdown {::comments} to LaTeX 
> comments?

Naturally, I have just implemented this and pushed it to the github
repo - please test it!

-- Thomas

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Tue Jun 15 16:27:00 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2010 22:27:00 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] New converter: kramdown
Message-ID: <20100615222700.41cc2411@noweto>

Hi everybody,

I have just pushed the latest changes to the github repo. The biggest
change is the addition of a kramdown converter! This means that we can
now not only do kramdown-to-html but also html-to-kramdown! :-)

The test suite has been enhanced to automatically produce
text-to-kramdown-to-html tests which were very helpful in making the
converter: there were about 70 failures after the initial
draft implementation, now there are zero.

Please test and report any errors!

Best regards,
  Thomas

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Mon Jun 21 02:41:40 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 08:41:40 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] German LaTeX output
Message-ID: <4C1F09A4.2040909@gmx.at>

Would it be possible to optionally configure kramdown for German LaTeX 
output?

A LaTeX document adds German specific syntax when instructed with

     \usepackage[german]{babel}

It is mostly the quotes that need to be fixed:

     "Kramdown double quotes"

are currently transformed into

     ``English double quotes''

but need to be

     `"German double quotes'"

The same is for single quotes:

     'Kramdown single quotes'

are currently transformed into

     `English single quotes'

but need to be

     \qlq{}German single quotes\qrq{}

Thanks,
Michael

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Mon Jun 21 03:05:58 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 09:05:58 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] RFC - using classes to change the blockquote
 environment
In-Reply-To: <20100614201319.1ca816de@noweto>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at>
	<20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>	<4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at>
	<20100613201121.7e340def@noweto>	<4C15E6A9.7070004@gmx.at>
	<20100614201319.1ca816de@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C1F0F56.8090906@gmx.at>

Thomas Leitner wrote:
>>      {: .smallquote }
>>      > Some Quote
>>
>> will be converted to
>>
>>      \begin{quote}  % .smallquote
>>      Some Quote
>>      \end{quote} % .smallquote
> 
> If you don't mind writing a post-processor for your case I would
> actually like to use this approach since it seems to be even more
> general! Thanks for the great idea!!

I have cloned from the github repository and ran setup.rb, but this 
feature seems not to be working.

By the way, how can I uninstall kramdown when installed by setup.rb?

>> BTW, is it also possible to convert kramdown {::comments} to LaTeX 
>> comments?
> 
> Naturally, I have just implemented this and pushed it to the github
> repo - please test it!

This works. Thank you!

Michael

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Mon Jun 21 05:42:09 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 11:42:09 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] German LaTeX output
In-Reply-To: <4C1F09A4.2040909@gmx.at>
References: <4C1F09A4.2040909@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <20100621114209.6f409b30@noweto>

On 2010-06-21 08:41 +0200 Michael Franzl wrote:
> Would it be possible to optionally configure kramdown for German
> LaTeX output?
> 
> A LaTeX document adds German specific syntax when instructed with
> 
>      \usepackage[german]{babel}

Just copy the included `document.latex` template from the
`data/kramdown` directory of the kramdown distribution to a new file in
your local directory and change it to fit your needs, ie. include the
above line! Then you can use the `template` option to use your modified
template.

> It is mostly the quotes that need to be fixed:
> 
>      "Kramdown double quotes"
> 
> are currently transformed into
> 
>      ``English double quotes''
> 
> but need to be
> 
>      `"German double quotes'"

Hmm... this is currently hard-coded. I assume that there are rules for
each language, not only English and German, on how the quotes should
be transformed?! If that is the case, the easiest way would probably be
to add a new option `latex_quotes` which specifies how
opening/closing double and single quotes are transformed - would this
fit your needs?

-- Thomas

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Mon Jun 21 10:35:06 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 16:35:06 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] RFC - using classes to change the blockquote
 environment
In-Reply-To: <4C1F0F56.8090906@gmx.at>
References: <4C13DFDD.4060104@gmx.at> <20100613082918.4228e9dd@noweto>
	<4C1481D3.7010207@gmx.at> <20100613201121.7e340def@noweto>
	<4C15E6A9.7070004@gmx.at> <20100614201319.1ca816de@noweto>
	<4C1F0F56.8090906@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <20100621163506.30efd9ef@noweto>

On 2010-06-21 09:05 +0200 Michael Franzl wrote:
> Thomas Leitner wrote:
> >>      {: .smallquote }
> >>      > Some Quote
> >>
> >> will be converted to
> >>
> >>      \begin{quote}  % .smallquote
> >>      Some Quote
> >>      \end{quote} % .smallquote
> > 
> > If you don't mind writing a post-processor for your case I would
> > actually like to use this approach since it seems to be even more
> > general! Thanks for the great idea!!
> 
> I have cloned from the github repository and ran setup.rb, but this 
> feature seems not to be working.

This was not implemented till now since I waited if someone else would
comment on it. However, I have implemented it now and the latest
changes are on github.

There are two changes regarding the implementation: the attributes are
output in HTML key-value form and the behaviour is not only added to
blockquotes, but also lists, tables, certain code blocks and math
blocks.

-- Thomas

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Mon Jun 21 13:22:21 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Mon, 21 Jun 2010 19:22:21 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] German LaTeX output
In-Reply-To: <20100621114209.6f409b30@noweto>
References: <4C1F09A4.2040909@gmx.at> <20100621114209.6f409b30@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C1F9FCD.6020606@gmx.at>

Thomas Leitner wrote:
> Just copy the included `document.latex` template from the
> `data/kramdown` directory of the kramdown distribution to a new file in
> your local directory and change it to fit your needs, ie. include the
> above line! Then you can use the `template` option to use your modified
> template.

Thank you for the hint!

> Hmm... this is currently hard-coded. I assume that there are rules for
> each language, not only English and German, on how the quotes should
> be transformed?! If that is the case, the easiest way would probably be
> to add a new option `latex_quotes` which specifies how
> opening/closing double and single quotes are transformed - would this
> fit your needs?

Yes. Only as long as it is generally useful also for others. In 
France/Switzerland they might need guillements instead of quotation 
marks. Here are a few infos:

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/LaTeX/Internationalization

Right now I have to do the following to be able to print correct 
German punctuation:

     sed -i 's|``|"`|g' file.tex
     sed -i "s|''|\"'|g" file.tex
     perl -i -pe "s|([^\"])\`(.*?)\'|\1\\\glq{}\2\\\grq{}|g" file.tex

So it can be done also without kramdown, but I try to make it as 
'beautiful' and straightforward as possible. Don't know if that is 
worth implementing though.

Michael

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Wed Jun 23 02:51:18 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 08:51:18 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.9.0 released
Message-ID: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto>

## About kramdown

kramdown (sic, not Kramdown or KramDown, just kramdown) is a *free*
GPL-licensed [Ruby](http://www.ruby-lang.org) library for parsing a
superset of Markdown. It is completely written in Ruby, supports
standard Markdown (with some minor modifications) and various
extensions that have been made popular by the [PHP Markdown Extra]
package and [Maruku].
Homepage for installation instructions and documentation:
   http://kramdown.rubyforge.org


## kramdown 0.9.0 released

The biggest change in this release is the addition of a kramdown
converter. This converter together with the HTML parser enables one to
convert an HTML document into a kramdown document.

Apart from that there are many other small changes and bug fixes, a
full list of which you find below.

## Changes

* Major changes:

  - New *kramdown converter* that converts an element tree into a
    kramdown document

* Minor changes:

  - Added option `numeric_entities` that defines whether entities are
    output using their names or their numeric values
  - Added option `toc_depth` for specifying how many header levels to
    include in the table of contents (patch by Alex Marandon)
  - Ruby 1.9 only: The HTML converter now always tries to convert
    entities to their character equivalences if possible
  - Change in HTML parser: conversion of `pre` and `code` elements to
    their native counterpart is only done if they contain no entities
    (under Ruby 1.9 entities are converted to characters before this
    check if possible)
  - The comment extension now produces comment elements that are used
    by the converters
  - IALs can now also be assigned to definitions (i.e. `dd` elements)
  - Image links may now be specified without alternative text
    (requested by Rune Myrland, fixes RF#28292)
  - The HTML parser gained the ability to convert conforming `span` and
    `div` elements to `math` elements
  - The LaTeX converter now outputs the element attributes as LaTeX
    comment for some elements (blockquotes, lists and math
    environments; requested by Michael Franzl)

* Bug fixes:

  - Fixed problem with list item IALs: the IAL was not recognized when
    first element was a code block
  - Fixed ri documentation error on gem installation (patch by Alex
    Marandon)
  - Math content is now correctly escaped when using the HTML converter
  - Fixed html-to-native conversion of tables to only convert
    conforming tables

* Deprecation notes:

  - The `filter_html` option has been removed.
  - The method `Kramdown::Converter::Html#options_for_element` has been
    renamed to `html_attributes` -- using the old name is deprecated
    and the alias will be removed in the next release

From sunshine at sunshineco.com  Wed Jun 23 05:55:19 2010
From: sunshine at sunshineco.com (Eric Sunshine)
Date: Wed, 23 Jun 2010 05:55:19 -0400
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.9.0 released
In-Reply-To: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto>
References: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C21DA07.8000508@sunshineco.com>

Hi Thomas,

On 6/23/2010 2:51 AM, Thomas Leitner wrote:
> The biggest change in this release is the addition of a kramdown
> converter. This converter together with the HTML parser enables one to
> convert an HTML document into a kramdown document.

Very nicely done. I ran some tests on this feature and the results were 
very favorable, though there were a few issues worth reporting.

First, what is the intended behavior when feeding kramdown a 
fully-structured HTML document containing <html>, <head>, <body>? In my 
tests, upon converting to kramdown, a 'markdown="1"' attribute was added 
to <body>, however, this was ignored when converting the document back 
to HTML. Even when adding 'markdown="1"' manually to the parent <html> 
node, conversion back to HTML failed (that is, no Markdown processing 
was performed at all inside the body).

Second, once I stripped the <html> and <body> boilerplate from the 
document, conversion on Windows from HTML to kramdown succeeded, but 
conversion back to HTML failed with this exception:

C:\>kramdown test.kd > test.html
c:/ruby/lib/ruby/gems/1.9.1/gems/kramdown-0.9.0/lib/kramdown/parser/kramdown.rb:206:in 
`check': incompatible encoding regexp match (UTF-8 regexp with IBM437 
string) (Encoding::CompatibilityError)

Invoking 'set LANG=en_US.UTF-8' at the Windows command prompt resolved 
this issue. Note that the original HTML contained &#xHH; entity 
references for copyright, elipses, etc.

Third, this is an old HTML document still using <b>bold</b> elements 
rather than <strong>...</strong>. The <b>bold</b> elements were not 
converted to **bold** Markdown. I think it should be safe to treat <b> 
as equivalent to <strong> for conversion purposes.

Fourth, I ran into a problem with a stand-alone <img/> element being 
consumed by a subsequent paragraph. For instance, given HTML input:

   <img src="foo.png" alt="foo" />
   <p>bar</p>

Conversion to kramdown produced:

  ![foo](<foo.png>)
  bar

And conversion back to HTML resulted in the <img/> becoming a child of 
the <p>:

   <p><img alt="foo" src="foo.png" />
   bar</p>

-- ES

From michaelfranzl at gmx.at  Thu Jun 24 04:35:22 2010
From: michaelfranzl at gmx.at (Michael Franzl)
Date: Thu, 24 Jun 2010 10:35:22 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.9.0 released
In-Reply-To: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto>
References: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C2318CA.8010209@gmx.at>

Thomas Leitner wrote:
>   - The LaTeX converter now outputs the element attributes as LaTeX
>     comment for some elements (blockquotes, lists and math
>     environments; requested by Michael Franzl)

In LaTeX, the closing tag of an environment needs to have the same 
name as the opening tag. So it is not enough to add the comment only 
at the beginning. Right now kramdown produces:

     \begin{quote}   %  class="small"
     a quote
     \end{quote}

But it should be:

     \begin{quote} % class="small"
     a quote
     \end{quote} % class="small"

Otherwise it is not possible to transform it via regular expressions:

     \begin{small}
     a quote
     \end{small}

Thanks,

Michael

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Fri Jun 25 02:19:23 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:19:23 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.9.0 released
In-Reply-To: <4C21DA07.8000508@sunshineco.com>
References: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto> <4C21DA07.8000508@sunshineco.com>
Message-ID: <20100625081923.7549f051@noweto>

> First, what is the intended behavior when feeding kramdown a 
> fully-structured HTML document containing <html>, <head>, <body>? In
> my tests, upon converting to kramdown, a 'markdown="1"' attribute was
> added to <body>, however, this was ignored when converting the
> document back to HTML. Even when adding 'markdown="1"' manually to
> the parent <html> node, conversion back to HTML failed (that is, no
> Markdown processing was performed at all inside the body).

It should output it in a hybrid format, i.e. converting everything
possible to kramdown and leaving the rest as HTML. I just ran a sample
HTML document through html-to-kramdown-to-html and it worked fine for
all things except the DOCTYPE - I have put this on my TODO list.

> Second, once I stripped the <html> and <body> boilerplate from the 
> document, conversion on Windows from HTML to kramdown succeeded, but 
> conversion back to HTML failed with this exception:
> 
> C:\>kramdown test.kd > test.html
> c:/ruby/lib/ruby/gems/1.9.1/gems/kramdown-0.9.0/lib/kramdown/parser/kramdown.rb:206:in 
> `check': incompatible encoding regexp match (UTF-8 regexp with IBM437 
> string) (Encoding::CompatibilityError)

Hmm... I have to look at this, and probably generate some test cases
for checking encodings under Ruby 1.9. Could you send me the test.kd
document so that I can dig into it and find the offending regexp?

> Third, this is an old HTML document still using <b>bold</b> elements 
> rather than <strong>...</strong>. The <b>bold</b> elements were not 
> converted to **bold** Markdown. I think it should be safe to treat
> <b> as equivalent to <strong> for conversion purposes.

Yeah, I thought about this... but decided against it, can't remember
why. But it should probably be okay converting <b> and <i> to <strong>
and <em>.
 
> Fourth, I ran into a problem with a stand-alone <img/> element being 
> consumed by a subsequent paragraph. For instance, given HTML input:
> 
>    <img src="foo.png" alt="foo" />
>    <p>bar</p>
> 
> Conversion to kramdown produced:
> 
>   ![foo](<foo.png>)
>   bar
> 
> And conversion back to HTML resulted in the <img/> becoming a child
> of the <p>:
> 
>    <p><img alt="foo" src="foo.png" />
>    bar</p>

The reason for this is that kramdown always treats <img> tags as span
level elements and never as block elements like in your example above.
So an image will always be wrapped in a paragraph!

Also that consecutive text and span tags inside a flow HTML element like
<div> will conceptually be wrapped in a paragraph!

-- Thomas

From t_leitner at gmx.at  Fri Jun 25 02:24:28 2010
From: t_leitner at gmx.at (Thomas Leitner)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:24:28 +0200
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.9.0 released
In-Reply-To: <4C2318CA.8010209@gmx.at>
References: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto>
	<4C2318CA.8010209@gmx.at>
Message-ID: <20100625082428.4aab8458@noweto>

On 2010-06-24 10:35 +0200 Michael Franzl wrote:
> Thomas Leitner wrote:
> >   - The LaTeX converter now outputs the element attributes as LaTeX
> >     comment for some elements (blockquotes, lists and math
> >     environments; requested by Michael Franzl)
> 
> In LaTeX, the closing tag of an environment needs to have the same 
> name as the opening tag. So it is not enough to add the comment only 
> at the beginning. Right now kramdown produces:
> 
>      \begin{quote}   %  class="small"
>      a quote
>      \end{quote}
> 
> But it should be:
> 
>      \begin{quote} % class="small"
>      a quote
>      \end{quote} % class="small"

Will change that!

-- Thomas

From sunshine at sunshineco.com  Fri Jun 25 09:26:40 2010
From: sunshine at sunshineco.com (Eric Sunshine)
Date: Fri, 25 Jun 2010 09:26:40 -0400
Subject: [kramdown-users] [ANN] kramdown 0.9.0 released
In-Reply-To: <20100625081923.7549f051@noweto>
References: <20100623085118.34a4b9ac@noweto> <4C21DA07.8000508@sunshineco.com>
	<20100625081923.7549f051@noweto>
Message-ID: <4C24AE90.3090901@sunshineco.com>

Hi Thomas,

On 6/25/2010 2:19 AM, Thomas Leitner wrote:
>> First, what is the intended behavior when feeding kramdown a
>> fully-structured HTML document containing<html>,<head>,<body>?
> It should output it in a hybrid format, i.e. converting everything
> possible to kramdown and leaving the rest as HTML. I just ran a sample
> HTML document through html-to-kramdown-to-html and it worked fine for
> all things except the DOCTYPE - I have put this on my TODO list.

I'm not sure that I understand. When I feed it the HTML input:

   <html>
   <head>
   <title>Title</title>
   </head>
   <body>
   <h1>Header</h1>
   Body <strong>text</strong>.
   </body>
   </html>

The emitted kramdown is:

   <html><head><title>Title</title>
   </head>
   <body markdown="1"># Header

   Body **text**.
   </body>
   </html>

But in the conversion back to HTML, kramdown entities, such as "# 
Header" and "***text***" are not converted to HTML equivalents. In fact, 
the output of kramdown -> HTML is identical to the input (minus the 
markdown="1" attribute):

   <html><head><title>Title</title>
   </head>
   <body># Header

   Body **text**.
   </body>
   </html>

>> C:\>kramdown test.kd>  test.html
>> c:/ruby/lib/ruby/gems/1.9.1/gems/kramdown-0.9.0/lib/kramdown/parser/kramdown.rb:206:in
>> `check': incompatible encoding regexp match (UTF-8 regexp with IBM437
>> string) (Encoding::CompatibilityError)
> Hmm... I have to look at this, and probably generate some test cases
> for checking encodings under Ruby 1.9. Could you send me the test.kd
> document so that I can dig into it and find the offending regexp?

I narrowed it down to this fragment:

   <p>Fran&#xE7;ois</p>

The equivalent <p>Fran&ccedil;ois</p> is converted to kramdown and back 
to HTML without problem.

>> Third, this is an old HTML document still using<b>bold</b>  elements
>> rather than<strong>...</strong>. The<b>bold</b>  elements were not
>> converted to **bold** Markdown. I think it should be safe to treat
>> <b>  as equivalent to<strong>  for conversion purposes.
> Yeah, I thought about this... but decided against it, can't remember
> why. But it should probably be okay converting<b>  and<i>  to<strong>
> and<em>.

If the intention is for perfect fidelity in the HTML -> kramdown -> HTML 
chain, then I can understand not touching <b> and <i> since you could 
not reproduce them in the final HTML. Perhaps an option in the HTML 
parser could control whether <b> and <i> are folded to <strong> and <em>.

-- ES