[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Miguel Madero me at miguelmadero.com
Sat Oct 23 01:33:20 EDT 2010


:)

On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 1:40 PM, Michael Letterle <
michael.letterle at gmail.com> wrote:

> Best. Fucking. Decision. Ever.
>
> Time for IronRuby to rock and roll. Let's do this. \m/
>
> On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>
> wrote:
> > In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much
> more
> > relevant; here's why:
> >
> blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx
> > In short, Miguel de Icaza and I will be helping the community guide
> > IronRuby, while us plus Michael Foord and Jeff Hardy will help guide
> > IronPython. Also, IronRuby 1.1.1 has been released, which finally
> includes
> > IronRuby tools for Visual Studio and the latest work towards 1.9
> > compatibility. I believe Tomas will send mail about the specifics
> shortly.
> > ~Jimmy
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue
> >> that I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest
> we
> >> be patient for the next week.
> >>
> >> ~Jimmy
> >>
> >>
> >> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will at hotgazpacho.org>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
> >>> intentions for IronRuby.
> >>> Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
> >>> could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who
> can
> >>> clarify for us what their intentions are?
> >>> --
> >>> Will Green
> >>> http://hotgazpacho.org/
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
> >>>> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
> >>>> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak
> on
> >>>> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for
> all
> >>>> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in
> and
> >>>> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
> >>>> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with
> the
> >>>> mushy stuff ...
> >>>> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
> >>>> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is
> just
> >>>> going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not
> only
> >>>> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind
> that
> >>>> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it
> seems
> >>>> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we
> suspect
> >>>> to be true unless told otherwise.
> >>>> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community,
> to
> >>>> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
> >>>> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should
> ask
> >>>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
> >>>>
> >>>> Be clear about their intentions. I know this will eventually happen,
> but
> >>>> I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step.
> >>>> Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity (again, assuming they don't
> >>>> plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
> >>>> open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned
> by
> >>>> Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft.
> Etc,
> >>>> etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
> >>>> foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal,
> so
> >>>> that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is
> precedence in
> >>>> Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation,
> so
> >>>> Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
> >>>>
> >>>> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm
> >>>> not the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else
> you'd
> >>>> like to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and
> let's
> >>>> discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
> >>>> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
> >>>> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run
> the
> >>>> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we
> need to
> >>>> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the
> time
> >>>> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do
> =)).
> >>>> But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also
> hinted
> >>>> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact
> me if
> >>>> you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
> >>>> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I
> suggesting
> >>>> people stop talking.
> >>>> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think
> you're
> >>>> taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to
> move
> >>>> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
> >>>> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants
> to
> >>>> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and
> write
> >>>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane
> I'll
> >>>> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
> >>>>
> >>>> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
> >>>> everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but
> directed.
> >>>> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take
> shots at
> >>>> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually
> get
> >>>> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby.
> Show the
> >>>> world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what
> makes
> >>>> the project live.
> >>>> Now, discuss!
> >>>> ~Jimmy
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at microsoft.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
> >>>>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word
> from MS
> >>>>> on what will happen with everything, I’d be happy to discuss the fate
> of the
> >>>>> IronRuby organization on Github J
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
> >>>>> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion
> Edwards
> >>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>>>> Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4. Rails on .NET
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
> >>>>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both
> maturity
> >>>>> and thinking.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I
> think
> >>>>> this would help a lot
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On question I'd REALLY like answered is this:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now
> >>>>> that he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks, Orion
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge at gmail.com
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported
> tool,
> >>>>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other
> hand,
> >>>>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
> >>>>> understand what they could use it for and how.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak.  I
> >>>>> know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about
> endless, but
> >>>>> what are the main areas we think people can derive significant
> benefit from
> >>>>> using it?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we
> >>>>> need to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and
> helping
> >>>>> people get started with using it for those things.  This could help
> drive
> >>>>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 1. Unit Testing
> >>>>> (
> http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html
> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2. Embedded Scripting
> >>>>> (
> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html
> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 3. Silverlight
> >>>>> (
> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html
> )
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 4. ?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Thanks,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Kevin Berridge
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very
> helpful
> >>>>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
> >>>>> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too)
> for
> >>>>> the future.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to
> >>>>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
> >>>>> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our
> decisions
> >>>>> about what to do.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
> >>>>> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
> >>>>> what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
> >>>>> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
> >>>>> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
> >>>>> make some of decisions.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> thanks,
> >>>>> Slavo.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld
> >>>>> <lists at ruby-forum.com> wrote:
> >>>>> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup, give
> >>>>> > support
> >>>>> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the technology
> >>>>> > that
> >>>>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to
> >>>>> > another
> >>>>> > job.
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Regards,
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > Cory Foy wrote:
> >>>>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the
> >>>>> >> main
> >>>>> >> person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working
> >>>>> >> on it
> >>>>> >> part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but
> being
> >>>>> >> an
> >>>>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics
> >>>>> >> that
> >>>>> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against
> IronRuby,
> >>>>> >> but
> >>>>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate
> >>>>> >> about
> >>>>> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the
> >>>>> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've
> >>>>> >> done
> >>>>> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term
> >>>>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork
> >>>>> >> it,
> >>>>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be
> >>>>> >> controlled.
> >>>>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need
> to
> >>>>> >> ask
> >>>>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now
> >>>>> >> lost
> >>>>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will
> need
> >>>>> >> an
> >>>>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person
> will
> >>>>> >> have
> >>>>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft
> side.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet
> >>>>> >> there
> >>>>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
> >>>>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
> >>>>> >> understand what else we're missing.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
> >>>>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by
> Microsoft
> >>>>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their
> >>>>> >> products.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as
> a
> >>>>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of
> >>>>> >> this -
> >>>>> >> and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be
> willing
> >>>>> >> to
> >>>>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's
> a
> >>>>> >> shame.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means
> >>>>> >> we
> >>>>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and
> >>>>> >> work to
> >>>>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that
> >>>>> >> makes
> >>>>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an
> >>>>> >> email
> >>>>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and
> >>>>> >> Jimmy
> >>>>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
> >>>>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to
> >>>>> >> take
> >>>>> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is
> >>>>> >> there.
> >>>>> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on
> >>>>> >> internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project
> a
> >>>>> >> real
> >>>>> >> success.
> >>>>> >>
> >>>>> >> Cory
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> > --
> >>>>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
> >>>>> > _______________________________________________
> >>>>> > Ironruby-core mailing list
> >>>>> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>>>> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>>>> >
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Ironruby-core mailing list
> >>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> >>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >>>
> >>
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Ironruby-core mailing list
> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Letterle
> IronRuby MVP
> http://blog.prokrams.com
> _______________________________________________
> Ironruby-core mailing list
> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>



-- 
Miguel A. Madero Reyes
www.miguelmadero.com (blog)
me at miguelmadero.com
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