[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Michael Letterle michael.letterle at gmail.com
Thu Oct 21 22:40:32 EDT 2010


Best. Fucking. Decision. Ever.

Time for IronRuby to rock and roll. Let's do this. \m/

On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 7:38 PM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com> wrote:
> In-case anyone is living under a rock, this thread has just become much more
> relevant; here's why:
> blogs.msdn.com/b/jasonz/archive/2010/10/21/new-components-and-contributors-for-ironpython-and-ironruby.aspx
> In short, Miguel de Icaza and I will be helping the community guide
> IronRuby, while us plus Michael Foord and Jeff Hardy will help guide
> IronPython. Also, IronRuby 1.1.1 has been released, which finally includes
> IronRuby tools for Visual Studio and the latest work towards 1.9
> compatibility. I believe Tomas will send mail about the specifics shortly.
> ~Jimmy
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue
>> that I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest we
>> be patient for the next week.
>>
>> ~Jimmy
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will at hotgazpacho.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
>>> intentions for IronRuby.
>>> Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
>>> could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who can
>>> clarify for us what their intentions are?
>>> --
>>> Will Green
>>> http://hotgazpacho.org/
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
>>>> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
>>>> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on
>>>> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for all
>>>> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and
>>>> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
>>>> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the
>>>> mushy stuff ...
>>>> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
>>>> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just
>>>> going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only
>>>> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that
>>>> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it seems
>>>> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we suspect
>>>> to be true unless told otherwise.
>>>> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to
>>>> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
>>>> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask
>>>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>>>>
>>>> Be clear about their intentions. I know this will eventually happen, but
>>>> I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first step.
>>>> Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity (again, assuming they don't
>>>> plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
>>>> open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by
>>>> Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc,
>>>> etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
>>>> foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so
>>>> that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in
>>>> Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so
>>>> Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
>>>>
>>>> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm
>>>> not the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd
>>>> like to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's
>>>> discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
>>>> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
>>>> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the
>>>> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we need to
>>>> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the time
>>>> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)).
>>>> But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also hinted
>>>> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact me if
>>>> you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
>>>> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I suggesting
>>>> people stop talking.
>>>> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're
>>>> taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to move
>>>> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
>>>> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants to
>>>> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
>>>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll
>>>> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
>>>>
>>>> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
>>>> everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but directed.
>>>> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take shots at
>>>> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get
>>>> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby. Show the
>>>> world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what makes
>>>> the project live.
>>>> Now, discuss!
>>>> ~Jimmy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at microsoft.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
>>>>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from MS
>>>>> on what will happen with everything, I’d be happy to discuss the fate of the
>>>>> IronRuby organization on Github J
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
>>>>> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Orion Edwards
>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
>>>>>
>>>>> To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. Rails on .NET
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
>>>>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both maturity
>>>>> and thinking.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think
>>>>> this would help a lot
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On question I'd REALLY like answered is this:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now
>>>>> that he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks, Orion
>>>>>
>>>>> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool,
>>>>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other hand,
>>>>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
>>>>> understand what they could use it for and how.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak.  I
>>>>> know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless, but
>>>>> what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from
>>>>> using it?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we
>>>>> need to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
>>>>> people get started with using it for those things.  This could help drive
>>>>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. Unit Testing
>>>>> (http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Embedded Scripting
>>>>> (http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> 3. Silverlight
>>>>> (http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html)
>>>>>
>>>>> 4. ?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Kevin Berridge
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful
>>>>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
>>>>> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for
>>>>> the future.
>>>>>
>>>>> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to
>>>>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
>>>>> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
>>>>>
>>>>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
>>>>> about what to do.
>>>>>
>>>>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
>>>>> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
>>>>> what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
>>>>> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
>>>>> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
>>>>> make some of decisions.
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks,
>>>>> Slavo.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld
>>>>> <lists at ruby-forum.com> wrote:
>>>>> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup, give
>>>>> > support
>>>>> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the technology
>>>>> > that
>>>>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to
>>>>> > another
>>>>> > job.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Regards,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Cory Foy wrote:
>>>>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the
>>>>> >> main
>>>>> >> person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working
>>>>> >> on it
>>>>> >> part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being
>>>>> >> an
>>>>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics
>>>>> >> that
>>>>> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby,
>>>>> >> but
>>>>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate
>>>>> >> about
>>>>> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the
>>>>> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've
>>>>> >> done
>>>>> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term
>>>>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork
>>>>> >> it,
>>>>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be
>>>>> >> controlled.
>>>>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to
>>>>> >> ask
>>>>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now
>>>>> >> lost
>>>>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need
>>>>> >> an
>>>>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will
>>>>> >> have
>>>>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet
>>>>> >> there
>>>>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
>>>>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
>>>>> >> understand what else we're missing.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
>>>>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft
>>>>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their
>>>>> >> products.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a
>>>>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of
>>>>> >> this -
>>>>> >> and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing
>>>>> >> to
>>>>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a
>>>>> >> shame.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means
>>>>> >> we
>>>>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and
>>>>> >> work to
>>>>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that
>>>>> >> makes
>>>>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an
>>>>> >> email
>>>>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and
>>>>> >> Jimmy
>>>>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
>>>>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to
>>>>> >> take
>>>>> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is
>>>>> >> there.
>>>>> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on
>>>>> >> internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project a
>>>>> >> real
>>>>> >> success.
>>>>> >>
>>>>> >> Cory
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>> > Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>> >
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Ironruby-core mailing list
>>>>> Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>>>> http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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-- 
Michael Letterle
IronRuby MVP
http://blog.prokrams.com


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