[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Jimmy Schementi jimmy at schementi.com
Thu Aug 12 10:22:34 EDT 2010


Let's not push Tomas or Jim to say anything; This is a big enough issue that
I'm sure Microsoft's PR firms are working on this. Again, I suggest we be
patient for the next week.

~Jimmy


On Tue, Aug 10, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Will Green <will at hotgazpacho.org> wrote:

> Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
> intentions for IronRuby.
>
> Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
> could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who can
> clarify for us what their intentions are?
>
> --
> Will Green
> http://hotgazpacho.org/
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com>wrote:
>
>> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
>> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
>>
>> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on
>> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for all
>> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and
>> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
>> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the
>> mushy stuff ...
>>
>> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
>> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just
>> going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only
>> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that
>> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it seems
>> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we suspect
>> to be true unless told otherwise.
>>
>> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to
>> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
>> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask
>> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>>
>>    1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
>>    happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first
>>    step.
>>    2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
>>    don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
>>    open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by
>>    Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc,
>>    etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
>>    foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so
>>    that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in
>>    Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so
>>    Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
>>
>> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm not
>> the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd like
>> to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's
>> discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
>> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
>>
>> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the
>> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we need to
>> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the time
>> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)).
>> But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also hinted
>> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact me if
>> you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
>> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I suggesting
>> people stop talking.
>>
>> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're
>> taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to move
>> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
>> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants to
>> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
>> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll
>> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
>>
>> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
>> everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but directed.
>> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take shots at
>> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get
>> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby. Show the
>> world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what makes
>> the project live.
>>
>> Now, discuss!
>>
>> ~Jimmy
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at microsoft.com>wrote:
>>
>>>  At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
>>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from MS
>>> on what will happen with everything, I’d be happy to discuss the fate of the
>>> IronRuby organization on Github J
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org [mailto:
>>> ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] *On Behalf Of *Orion Edwards
>>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
>>>
>>> *To:* ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 4. Rails on .NET
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
>>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both maturity
>>> and thinking.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think
>>> this would help a lot
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On question I'd REALLY like answered is this:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that
>>> he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Orion
>>>
>>> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>  To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool,
>>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other hand,
>>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
>>> understand what they could use it for and how.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak.  I
>>> know it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless, but
>>> what are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from
>>> using it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we need
>>> to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
>>> people get started with using it for those things.  This could help drive
>>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":
>>>
>>> 1. Unit Testing (
>>> http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html
>>> )
>>>
>>> 2. Embedded Scripting (
>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html
>>> )
>>>
>>> 3. Silverlight (
>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html
>>> )
>>>
>>> 4. ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Kevin Berridge
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful
>>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
>>> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for
>>> the future.
>>>
>>> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to
>>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
>>> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
>>>
>>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
>>> about what to do.
>>>
>>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
>>> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
>>> what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
>>> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
>>> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
>>> make some of decisions.
>>>
>>> thanks,
>>> Slavo.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <lists at ruby-forum.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup, give
>>> support
>>> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the technology
>>> that
>>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
>>> >
>>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to another
>>> > job.
>>> >
>>> > Regards,
>>> >
>>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
>>> >
>>> > Cory Foy wrote:
>>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
>>> >>
>>> >> Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the main
>>> >> person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working on
>>> it
>>> >> part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being
>>> an
>>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics that
>>> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby,
>>> but
>>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.
>>> >>
>>> >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate
>>> about
>>> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the
>>> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've done
>>> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term
>>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
>>> >>
>>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork it,
>>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be controlled.
>>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to
>>> ask
>>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:
>>> >>
>>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now
>>> lost
>>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need
>>> an
>>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will
>>> have
>>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side.
>>> >>
>>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet there
>>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
>>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
>>> >> understand what else we're missing.
>>> >>
>>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
>>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft
>>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their products.
>>> >>
>>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a
>>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of this
>>> -
>>> >> and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing to
>>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a
>>> >> shame.
>>> >>
>>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means we
>>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and work
>>> to
>>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes
>>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an email
>>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and
>>> Jimmy
>>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
>>> >>
>>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
>>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to take
>>> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is there.
>>> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on
>>> >> internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project a
>>> real
>>> >> success.
>>> >>
>>> >> Cory
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Ironruby-core mailing list
>>> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>>> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>>> >
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>>
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