[Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"

Will Green will at hotgazpacho.org
Tue Aug 10 12:33:46 EDT 2010


Well, we've seen a few plus-ones on talking to Microsoft about their
intentions for IronRuby.

Tomas or Jim, since you're both still on the inside, perhaps one of you
could speak, on behalf of the community, with someone at Microsoft who can
clarify for us what their intentions are?

--
Will Green
http://hotgazpacho.org/


On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 2:42 AM, Jimmy Schementi <jimmy at schementi.com> wrote:

> Ah, after a nice restful weekend of casually looking at the psychotic
> twitter reactions, I think I owe this thread a little attention.
>
> First off, I appreciate the overwhelming support, and I think I speak on
> behalf of Jim and Tomas as well. Thank you for caring so much, and for all
> the personal best wishes. Also, I appreciate everyone who stepped in and
> "cooled" down the situation. Those who see opportunity in this are
> well-suited to help shape the future of the project. But enough with the
> mushy stuff ...
>
> The reality of open-source software is that corporate sponsorship and
> funding comes and goes, and it would appear the IronRuby project is just
> going through that normal cycle. I'm grateful to Microsoft for not only
> employing me, but funding IronRuby to the 1.1 release. Keep in mind that
> Microsoft has not officially said anything regarding IronRuby, even it seems
> my leaving Microsoft speaks volumes. So, let's just assume what we suspect
> to be true unless told otherwise.
>
> This is a monumental opportunity for you all, the IronRuby community, to
> rally around something Microsoft invested in, enough to a initial 1.0
> release, and make it your own. However, there are two things we should ask
> Microsoft to commit to during this transition:
>
>    1. *Be clear about their intentions. *I *know *this will eventually
>    happen, but I want to make it clear to all of you that this is the first
>    step.
>    2. *Donate IronRuby to a non-Microsoft entity *(again, assuming they
>    don't plan on continuing funding). Though IronRuby is licensed under an
>    open-source license, it is copyright Microsoft. IronRuby.net is owned by
>    Microsoft. The GitHub "ironruby" organization is managed by Microsoft. Etc,
>    etc. If the intention is to cease funding IronRuby, then a non-profit
>    foundation owning IronRuby, like CodePlex Foundation, would be ideal, so
>    that we don't need to jointly own the copyright. There also is precedence in
>    Microsoft for internal employees to donate to the CodePlex foundation, so
>    Tomas and Jim can continue to contribute.
>
> In other words, a complete transition to non-Microsoft ownership. I'm not
> the only person with a voice here, so if there is anything else you'd like
> to see Microsoft do for a smooth transition, please speak up and let's
> discuss it. I'm hoping my leaving announcement will speed this process
> along, so assume we have little time to provide "demands".
>
> After these things happen, then we can all start figuring how to run the
> project, put infrastructure in place, and start figuring out what we need to
> accomplish to release IronRuby 1.2. Or, if none if this happens in the time
> we'd like, we can start FeRb (as @robconery essentially started to do =)).
> But let's try to be patient with IronRuby itself for now. I've also hinted
> at revisiting RubyCLR, but that will be a separate project (do contact me if
> you're interested). Also, feel free to still have the important
> conversations brought up in the previous messages; in no way am I suggesting
> people stop talking.
>
> Cory mentioned that my "leadership and vision" was lost. I think you're
> taking my job too seriously =P  ... but joking aside, I just wanted to move
> back to New York and it was time to leave Microsoft, but not Ruby or
> IronRuby. So, for the foreseeable future, or unless someone else wants to
> step up, you can still count on me to be the face of IronRuby and write
> code. Also, my new job is in the .NET world still, so to stay sane I'll
> still want to work on IronRuby. =)
>
> This is a challenging and emotional time indeed. Again, I appreciate
> everyone's support and energy. Please keep the energy high, but directed.
> Continue discussing "why IronRuby". Work in your private fork, take shots at
> fixing bugs or getting more RubySpec tests passing; they'll eventually get
> integrated back. Continue blogging about how you're using IronRuby. Show the
> world that regardless of Microsoft's position, the community is what makes
> the project live.
>
> Now, discuss!
>
> ~Jimmy
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 5:36 PM, Jim Deville <jdeville at microsoft.com>wrote:
>
>>  At this point Jimmy might, but the only one that should be commiting
>> there directly is the automated account. Once we get official word from MS
>> on what will happen with everything, I’d be happy to discuss the fate of the
>> IronRuby organization on Github J
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org [mailto:
>> ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] *On Behalf Of *Orion Edwards
>> *Sent:* Sunday, August 08, 2010 2:07 PM
>>
>> *To:* ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>> *Subject:* Re: [Ironruby-core] "Start spreading the news"
>>
>>
>>
>> 4. Rails on .NET
>>
>>
>>
>> I think asp.net mvc took a lot of the wind out of this particular
>> scenario, but rails is still literally *years* ahead of MVC in both maturity
>> and thinking.
>>
>>
>>
>> If we could get rails under ironruby easily deplorable to iis, I think
>> this would help a lot
>>
>>
>>
>> On question I'd REALLY like answered is this:
>>
>>
>>
>> Does Jimmy still have commit access to the main repos on github now that
>> he's left MS? Does anyone else outside MS have this?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks, Orion
>>
>> On 9/08/2010, at 3:36 AM, Kevin Berridge <kevin.w.berridge at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>  To Cory's point about IronRuby's credibility in the Enterprise:
>>
>>
>>
>> I think its certainly true that if IronRuby is not a MS supported tool,
>> there will be shops that will not be able to use it.  On the other hand,
>> there are still plenty of other shops that could use it, if only they
>> understand what they could use it for and how.
>>
>>
>>
>> To date, the story of what IronRuby is "for" has been rather weak.  I know
>> it's a language, and so it's possibilities are just about endless, but what
>> are the main areas we think people can derive significant benefit from using
>> it?
>>
>>
>>
>> If IronRuby really does end up being primarily community driven, we need
>> to come up with a much better story around what it is for, and helping
>> people get started with using it for those things.  This could help drive
>> adoption, which could in turn help drive contributors.
>>
>>
>>
>> Some examples of things IronRuby may be 'for":
>>
>> 1. Unit Testing (
>> http://kevin-berridge.blogspot.com/2010/08/testing-c-with-rspec-and-ruby.html
>> )
>>
>> 2. Embedded Scripting (
>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2009/12/ironruby-rubyconf-2009-part-35.html
>> )
>>
>> 3. Silverlight (
>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2008/08/walk-through-silverlight-flickr-client.html
>> )
>>
>> 4. ?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jimmy talked about #1 and #2 here:
>>
>>
>> http://blog.jimmy.schementi.com/2010/04/mix10-part-3-using-dynamic-languages-in.html
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kevin Berridge
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Slavo Furman <slavof at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I agree with Cory, too, but on the other hand it would be very helpful
>> if Microsoft (I mean someone who can speak for Microsoft) clearly say
>> what are they intentions with IronRuby (and maybe IronPython, too) for
>> the future.
>>
>> Are they "releasing IronRuby to the community"? Is Microsoft like to
>> (officially) participate in future in IronRuby development? If so, in
>> what way? As a project owner? And so on...
>>
>> Only knowing in what situation we really are we can make our decisions
>> about what to do.
>>
>> More clarity will also help with using the technology, for example, I
>> am considering using IronRuby for one project and now I do not know
>> what to expect from future (questions like - will development of
>> IronRuby continue, what about Silverlight and Azure support, what
>> about v1.9 compatibility, ...) and it is now became problematic to
>> make some of decisions.
>>
>> thanks,
>> Slavo.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 2:51 PM, Eduardo Blumenfeld <lists at ruby-forum.com>
>> wrote:
>> > I agree 100% with Cory, we just need to calm down, regroup, give support
>> > to Tomas, make our opinions heard and continue using the technology that
>> > helps us become way more productive in our jobs.
>> >
>> > On the other hand Jimmy will still be around, he just moved to another
>> > job.
>> >
>> > Regards,
>> >
>> > Eduardo Blumenfeld
>> >
>> > Cory Foy wrote:
>> >> Ok, I like to propose a pause in action.
>> >>
>> >> Here's what we know. Jimmy has moved on, as has Jim. Tomas is the main
>> >> person left, and from the emails we've received, he's only working on
>> it
>> >> part-time. I don't know the politics of this specific org, but being an
>> >> ex-softie I do have an idea, and that hunch is that the politics that
>> >> caused the reshuffle were not a conspiracy theory against IronRuby, but
>> >> just normal organization dysfunction and quarterly reorganization.
>> >>
>> >> We also know thay we have a community of people who are passionate
>> about
>> >> IronRuby, and a secondary wave of people driven into action by the
>> >> events of the past day or so. It stands to reason, from work I've done
>> >> in other communties, that one or two will end up being long term
>> >> participants because of the new awareness.
>> >>
>> >> That said, I don't think that what we should do right now is fork it,
>> >> since IronRuby relies heavily on the DLR which wouldn't be controlled.
>> >> This is not to say that we take it off the table. Rather we need to ask
>> >> ourselves what holes have now opened up that we need to fill:
>> >>
>> >> 1) Jimmy provided leadership and vision for the project. We've now lost
>> >> that, and either Tomas will pick this up internally, or we will need an
>> >> external person to run with the vision. Regardless, the person will
>> have
>> >> to interface with and understand the vision from the Microsoft side.
>> >>
>> >> 2) Tomas already mentioned needs like a CI and gatekeeper. I bet there
>> >> are lots of other needs, and if this is truly a community-owned
>> >> movement, we need to engage with Tomas and the remaining team to
>> >> understand what else we're missing.
>> >>
>> >> 3) IronRuby has likely taken a huge blow of credibility from the
>> >> enterprise adoption side, because if it isn't supported by Microsoft
>> >> PSS, they will be unlikely to use it internally or in their products.
>> >>
>> >> All three of these are vital points that we need to think about as a
>> >> community. Someone is going to have to step up to take charge of this -
>> >> and it's not going to come from the Mono side. Tomas may be willing to
>> >> take charge as much as possible - no one has asked him, and that's a
>> >> shame.
>> >>
>> >> IronRuby has not had a heart attack which requires CPR. That means we
>> >> need to take a measured, levelheaded response as a community and work
>> to
>> >> understand how we can help and how we can respond in a way that makes
>> >> sense. We already know from Jimmy's tweets that he's planning an email
>> >> for the group - how can we take advantage of the knowledge Jim and
>> Jimmy
>> >> have, and support the work Tomas is doing?
>> >>
>> >> Finally, we may have a burst of energy right now, but no form of
>> >> sprinting is going to help solve this. This is not a "we have to take
>> >> action now before we lose the opportunity!" moment. The code is there.
>> >> Many of the contributors are there, and know what is going on
>> >> internally. Let's collaborate and find a way to make this project a
>> real
>> >> success.
>> >>
>> >> Cory
>> >
>> > --
>> > Posted via http://www.ruby-forum.com/.
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Ironruby-core mailing list
>> > Ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
>> > http://rubyforge.org/mailman/listinfo/ironruby-core
>> >
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