[Ironruby-core] How do you convince .Net developers to useIronRuby?

Dotan N. dipidi at gmail.com
Thu Nov 5 02:40:27 EST 2009


dont forget that since rails devs are always looking for ways to squeeze
some more performance from their poorly performing c-ruby, if ironruby
performs considerably faster than MRI and JRuby, some dedicated windows
rails servers will start to pop up. it will be easier in every possible way
for a .net dev to deploy, run and manage.

i think this is the major 'selling' point -- bigger share for windows
servers and bigger opportunities for .net developers at the end of the day.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2009 at 8:58 AM, Jimmy Schementi <
Jimmy.Schementi at microsoft.com> wrote:

> On a related vein, I got some news from the Rails core team a couple of
> days ago that the Rails documentation is viewed by Windows machines 50% of
> the time. The Rails core team sees Windows developers as a huge group of
> people to make happy.
>
> >>> Ruby is considerably faster on Linux
>
> Unfortunately, that was true with previous builds of Ruby, but the new
> revived RubyInstaller project is building Ruby with more modern compilers,
> getting the speed up to what Ruby on Linux is: See
> http://antoniocangiano.com/2009/08/10/how-much-faster-is-ruby-on-linux/and
> http://antoniocangiano.com/2009/08/04/a-faster-ruby-on-windows-is-possible/if you haven't already.
>
> ~js
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org [mailto:
> ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of Nathan Stults
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:44 PM
> To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] How do you convince .Net developers to
> useIronRuby?
>
> But isn't the C-Ruby or J-Ruby crowd deploying primarily on Windows a
> pretty small group, all in all? Aren't most Ruby dev's working on Linux?
> After all, Ruby is considerably faster on Linux. I'm having a hard time
> imagining what the value proposition is for this demographic, who shouldn't
> really need to convert, but simply be willing to consider IronRuby as an
> alternative deployment option for Windows. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic,
> but I see convincing established Ruby developers to leave their stable,
> mature interpreters and libraries for 0.x IronRuby to gain access to .NET,
> and at the same time wave goodbye to Ruby 1.9, somewhat steeper of a climb
> than peddling dynamic languages, Ruby and IronRuby, to the existing .NET
> community. I do agree that you have to go in at the ALT.NET back door
> rather than the front door as the standard enterprise .NET developer is
> likely to stare blankly at you while you stammer in apparent gibberish at
> him, but converting Rubyists, this early in the ball game? I say good luck
> to that :) My guess is the bar of maturity and stability is even higher for
> existing Ruby programmers than
>  it is for fresh meat. But that's just my half cocked opinion. :)
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org
> [mailto:ironruby-core-bounces at rubyforge.org] On Behalf Of C. K. Ponnappa
> Sent: Wednesday, November 04, 2009 8:28 PM
> To: ironruby-core at rubyforge.org
> Subject: Re: [Ironruby-core] How do you convince .Net developers to
> useIronRuby?
>
> Hey Shay,
>
> > how do you suggest to present IronRuby to .Net developers
> The deal is that you're not convincing a Chevy SUV driver to switch to a
>
> Ford SUV. You're asking him to switch to a Lamborghini sports car. The ride
> quality is different, the engine  is fundamentally different, the handling
> is different and though the risks to passersby are roughly the same (they
> get run over if the driver is careless), the risks to the driver are
> different (not much can happen to you in an SUV because, so to speak, your
> ass is covered).
>
> What I'm trying to get at with this weak (but still amusing, I hope)
> analogy is that often with Ruby versus the mainstream (C#/Java), the fact
> that it's IronRuby or JRuby matters little; it's the fundamentally different
> approaches you need to take to ensure delivery that is the bigger issue.
> This includes technical issues like the unavailability of Intellisense (look
> at the bright side - the Java devs ask for refactoring support when you try
> to pitch JRuby to them which is a lot harder), software engineering issues
> (reliability, codebase entropy) and
>
> political issues (the last is a huge factor in the mainstream). My
> perspective - don't bother about it, at least right now. You have an
> audience that has already accepted and dealt with these issues; basically,
> convert the existing C-Ruby community first. Converting all the Ferrari
> owners to Lamborghini is an easier proposition, and generates enough
> publicity that the more adventurous among the mainstream will start
> experimenting of their own accord.
>
> As others on this thread have pointed out, most .Net shops are extremely
>
> conservative and most developers have next to no exposure to what the Ruby
> community would consider standard engineering best practices like TDD and
> CI. I'd say that the primary audience that you need to convert is the
> existing Ruby community by convincing them that IronRuby is a viable
> production platform. I'd say once the Ruby community accepts and promotes
> IronRuby just as they already have JRuby, then you can worry about bringing
> the luddites on board.
>
> At the risk of upsetting a lot of people, I think much of the mainstream
>
> .Net world is blinkered and has a very narrow perspective. For example, I
> have friends (and acquaintances) who are Microsoft devs who spend all their
> time writing C#, but who have never even _heard_ of Nant, NUnit and
> NHibernate. They have never heard of ReSharper and think VisualStudio is a
> cutting edge (*cough*) IDE. The Alt .Net guys are changing this, but these
> things take time.
>
> Focus on converting the Ruby community and the edgier folks in the
> mainstream (who tend to have their ears to the ground anyways) will follow.
>
> Best,
> Sidu.
> http://blog.sidu.in
> http://twitter.com/ponnappa
>
>
> Shay Friedman wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > In the last month I had 3 sessions about IronRuby, all of them in
> > front of .Net audience. I really believe in the IronRuby but I find it
>
> > very very hard to pass that to existing .Net developers.
> > I try to show the benefits of using IR - getting things done faster
> > (like POCs, internal tools), using REPL, using IR abilities from C#,
> > IR and Silverlight (like Gestalt), unit testing, RoR...
> > Most of the .Net devs are very conservative and are not willing to get
>
> > out of their familiar development environment even when they see the
> > clear benefits of the new technology.
> > They feel that using IronRuby will take everything they love from them
>
> > - Visual Studio, Ctrl+F5, the sacred intellisense, etc.
> >
> > That's about what happens during a session:
> > - No Visual Studio integration: 50% of the audience are willing to
> leave.
> > - No compilation: more 25% have just lost interest.
> > - Intensive command line work: more 15% are shutting down.
> >
> > That leaves about 10 perecent of the audience that just think of using
>
> > IronRuby, most of them decide not to eventually.
> >
> > My question is - how do you suggest to present IronRuby to .Net
> > developers?
> > and to the team members - does Microsoft expect that existing .Net
> > devs will start using IronRuby?
> >
> > Thanks!
> > Shay.
> >
> > --
> > --------------------------------------------------
> > Shay Friedman
> > Author of IronRuby Unleashed
> > http://www.IronShay.com
> > Follow me: http://twitter.com/ironshay
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
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